A federal appeals court ruled today that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools is unconstitutional because of the phrase "under God." Whoa.

[ 06-26-2002 07:07 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by TheKnot ]

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"One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Has the same ring as,

"One nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Hopefully Congress will get the clue that they need to change the pledge.

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Though, in my opinion, I don't really see the point of having a 'pledge of allegiance' or at least having students in education say it almost everyday.

Basically, its just you announcing your loyalty to the country. Don't you think being a citizen, voting, joining the military, and applying for jobs guarantee that loyalty already? What's the sense of declaring your allegiance everyday (well, schools at least)?

Some people say respect and/or honor. Singing the national anthem shows respect! 'Pledging your allegiance' is, in my opinion, NOT. If anything, it sounds a little like a dictatorship to me...

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Nothing wrong with a nation under God: read (your diety) as synonymous. And yes, though I personally do not believe in a diety, I see no reason why it should be yanked out of the Pledge.

What that statement means is one nation under the morals and justice and peacekeeping attributes as a God would want us to uphold. One nation embracing the tenets put forth by ones' personal diety so as to live peaceably together as one, and to hopefully lead the world (or assist, at any rate) into doing the same thing. It's the hidden nuance that is important, not whether the word "God" is written therein.

This only proves to me the continual downhill slide into mediocrity and worse that our country is heading toward. Next they'll decide the flag is going to offend the poor convicts in our prisons because it's STRIPED, or the animal rights activists will say its offensive to zebras and they'll change it to...

Nothing. That will please everybody.

And Knot, I don't see any difference between singing an anthem or pledging oneself to one's country. They are one and the same.

Speaking of: I suppose they're going to change the words to "God Bless America" now, right? I mean, what's the difference between that and the pledge?

[ 06-26-2002 11:52 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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My Characters: Rathal, Narcolm, Freedon Naad

Crime rages across cities, terrorist threats, allies going into war, and yet our government takes the time to break faith in its citizenry because of something thats not picture perfect. I'm pretty sure when our founding fathers created the Bill of Rights and created the U.S. Constitution they KNEW the nation was not going to be some perfect, utopian society.

Honestly though, and I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get flammed for this, I lost faith in this country in the Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinton scandal. The sight of the media attacking our own President like vultures, despite everything he had done, just made me sick. My time in middle school didn't help either. The so-called "racial equality" I've been learning so much during Black History Month turned to crap when I was plauged with black racists in a school that was 90 percent African American. That was hell for me then, and it still is now.

[ 06-27-2002 12:07 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by TheKnot ]

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And come on people, are we gonna change every kriffing national tradition to be P.C.? Not everyone might believe in a God, but I sure as hell heard them singing "GOD Bless America" after September 11? Why? The traditions and patriotism HELD US TOGETHER? Just as pledging alligance to the Flag, as it is, holds us together. We aren't just talking about being united in Justice. We are talking about being united in justice as prescribed by the rules found in...

*gasp*

...the Bible. You know those 10 commandments that no one wants on the wall? That's where we get all the laws our country is based on. At least, that's where the guys back then got them. And if you want to argue that "times are changing," go back to argument A. It's A NATIONAL TRADITION. It's PATRIOTIC. The founding fathers wrote it as "One nation under God." If you don't like it, you don't have to say it. But don't go changing an over 200 year old patriotic tradition. We will NEVER satisfy EVERYONE. Next someone will say in pledging to the flag we are worshipping an object and that we shouldn't pledge at all...

...just leave it be. It's not like we don't have the choice to say it or not.

And Ahmad, after the events of 9/11, I'd hope you'd appreciate that you are here TO SAY the pledge of alligiance.

[ 06-27-2002 12:17 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Mara1Jade ]

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We recgnized that there were and would be religious differences in the population of the United States way back when the First Amendmant was ratified. They said that they recognize that a situation may come up where one would say "I believe this, but you believe that, and it's ok." The problem came in when the men who wrote the laws were religious men, who either ignored what was meant by the first amendment, or just did not understand that certain phrases could offend someone who believed differently. This is where we see "I believe this, we all belive this, so let's use it." That's ignorance. Not everyone believes in one God.

When "under God" was added to the pledge in the 50's, it was to show the world that we were God loving people, unlike the soviets. Those in power at that time ignored the fact that others may not believe the same thing, and thus, our generation gets screwed over by the ignorance of the former generation.

The pledge as it is right now, says that we are a nation under God (the christian god; see, in the 50s, when one said God in America, that's what it meant).

Now, though, we're smarter, and we realize what the first amendment means. We realize that there are other people alive who are not christians, or jews, or even muslims. We realize that those people have the same right as christians. They have a right not to have a religious belief shoved in their face, and the faces of their children. We have to remember that the limit for a freedom is when it takes someone elses freedom away.

It is your right to believe that this is a nation under god, and it is your right to say it. See, the pledge is ours. It's everyone's. It belongs to the muslims, the christians, the jews, the atheists, everyone. If it is everyone's it should offend no one. Out of the four groups, "under God" won't offend the Mulims, the Christians, or the Jews, but it will offend the Atheists, and it is theirs too, so "under God" won't work.

If you get what I'm saying, good for you, if you don't, read it again and again until you do.

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Guys, it's not been a year yet since September 11, or has everyone forgotten already? Are we that jaded? Was all that simply a horrific jolt out of the mundanity of life... and now it has worn off so we can go back to being fashionably politically correct?

If you live in this country, I mean born to it... or if you have come here and chosen our citizenship, then you'd damn well better be ready to pledge yourself to her... no matter how STUPID our leaders are.

I am SOOOO ready to start a REVOLUTION.

There. I said it in public...

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But seriously, like I said before, I am dedicated to this country, I have not forgotten september eleventh I simply dont believe the government should decide whether or not we are allowed to say the pledge, If someone doesn't want to thats thier perrogitive. No one is being harmed by a bunch of people who pledge alliegence to the flag, and if someone is offended by "under god," then they should either ignore it, or think of what the true meaning of it is. There are so much more important things to be worried about that a few words in the pledge.

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My Characters: Rathal, Narcolm, Freedon Naad

We need to follow our believes, as anakin said, the limit to freedom is when it takes someone elses away... That is a very good point, but also, flawed completly... because the only way to give freedom, without taking away freedom, is...impossible, by givign freedom, we must then take freedom, if we do not remove freedom, we would be really far off from were we were, people would be able to shoot eachother for no reason, and couldnt be trailed for it,
and yes I KNOW thats not at all what you had in mind, but im just trying to get you all to walk my path(as scary as that might seem.)

we must always remember that "god" is really just a refrence to a higher being, yes, it was used in reference to christian church, but "God" is just whatever you believe his higher then us, and even athiests have a being such as that, i know a few of them, some believe that they are the higher form of life, some believe that it is science, but its all the same thing, it is what we want it to be, and will continue to be that, so in reality there is no reason to change the pledge.

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Second, what you said about freedom is screwy. It could be like this: "I want to kill him." "No, you'd be taking his freedom from him." "Well, then isn't my freedom being taken from me since I can't kill him?"

It could be like that, if we were all idiots. The way it is: "Your individual freedom only exists to the point where another person's individual freedom is taken by you. Therefore, to kill someone is not a freedom, as it is taking someone else's freedom from them. Taking someone's freedom who was intending to take your freedom can simply be written off as a fuck up.

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and as for Atheism i looked it up, its the disbeliefe in a diety...and so yes,the poeple i know are atheists. as they dont believe in a diety, they simply believe in perhaps science as the creator... everyone has a believe for the workigns of the world...Atheism doesnt change that fact...

if you want to dispute what i just said, then heres the direct post from dictenary, ill make your life easer, and less hard to say im wrong...

"a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity " there it is...from webster himself

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Has anyone here noticed that almost every tragedy that occurs in the United States brings its people closer together?

I mean, Pearl Harbor pushed the country into WW2, which we won. The assassinations of JFK and Martin Luther King, Jr. encouraged the government to change amendments in the Constitution. Heck, even the Civil War, the War of 1812, and the Revolution created the nation as it stands today.

Of course, September 11th was no different. Because of this tragedy, the world sympathized with us, people began to support Bush more, the military became more active in the Middle East, and Afghanistan was free of Taliban rule. Amazing, huh?

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So far, Congress, our Prez, and popular opinion polls are AGAINST this raging idiocy. And to think it all began with a father in California... who needs to go back to school himself and learn the difference between the terms "worship" and "ceremonial deism." He and the judge who made the ruling ought to be kicked out of America.

When we pledge our allegiance, it is to our flag and country, NOT to God. The Pledge does not say, "I pledge allegiance to the flag... ...and to our God." NO. It says, "under God," which is different. That line reflects the morality of this nation at the time of its birth... a morality which sorely needs to be replaced.

And hey, what about our currency? It DOES say, "In God We Trust" on it. Does this ruling pave the way to negating our very dollar?

I PLEDGE MY ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS:

A NATION BORN UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

[ 06-27-2002 11:05 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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and yes graysith, we californians tend to be dumbasses...sorry to say, but i have first hand experience of it, just look at the majority of my posts

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The phrase "under God" was added in 1954...about fifty years ago.

The Pledge of Allegiance was created in 1892...about a hundred years ago.

Another interesting fact:

The phrase "under God" was a means to seperate the United States, in which the popular religion was Christianity, from the Soviet Union, in which the popular religion that was being pushed was Atheism. Today, the United States is now more populated with different religions than before Cold War times, and now we're buddies with the Russians.

Do we really need "under God" in the pledge now?

Oh, and here's some thoughts:

Notice that "under God" the word God is spelled with a capitalized G. As far as I know, only one religion has a god as a deity spelled wih a capitalized G(Christians). Had this been simply "under god", which makes a better reference to other religions, most people would probably sit better with the pledge.

A law was passed in South Carolina recently in which pupils are allowed to say their prayers in schools. Now, say you were a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, or any other religion, and you were FORCED to make a Christian prayer? How would you feel about that?

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