But that's not the issue in this thread.

I still think it's a stupid ruling. It's unconstitutional to say the pledge? Jeez Louise, now THAT is really sad.

And as I said, I didn't hear anyone complaining that the Congress sang "God Bless America" after the events of 9/11. We forget too easily the things that REALLY MATTER. We are arguing over 2 words in the pledge.

THIS IS POINTLESS.

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Graysith, you're wrong. Whether you say "a nation born under God" or simply, "under God" doesn't change a thing. Those who stil don't believe in God will still say, "yea, right, God doesn't exist, this nation was born under anything."

And yes, the majority of the people in this nation think the ruling was wrong, so what? Do we go with the majority and take the rights of the minority? You have to have a compromise between both the majority and minority, something that wouldn't offend either side, which is the original pledge.

Entaris, science isn't a being. You worded it completely wrong. A better way is to say that even atheists believe something other than humans created everything.

Mara, it doesn't seem pointless to me at all. It's about principle. We say we're going to keep the church out of the state in order for people of religions that aren't christian to not feel secluded. And atheist doesn't believe there is a god, and therefore, this nation isn't "under God," yet the pledge says those words, and if you want to say the pledge, you gotta say those words.

The really sad thing is what Graysith, Congress, and the President are doing. When you look at the facts, the ruling is right, the pledge, as is today, is unconstitutional. The thing the three people I mentioned are using as an argument are that it's tradition, and wrong to attack it in this fashion. It may feel wrong, but the Constitution is the law of the land, and the courts must follow it. Maybe you don't pledge yourself to the constitution, but the President does, the congress does, and the judges do. Thank god for the judges, since we now know an oath means shit to the congress and the president.

The Constitution is the ONLY thing that has made this nation last as long as we have, and it doesn't make sense to me how all of you who think the ruling is absolutely proposterous can call yourself an American. In my mind, to be a true American, you have to be able to pledge your life, even if you're not in the military, to protecting the constitution, and the rights that lie within it.

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Here we have people starving and dying and are STILL involved in a major campaign agaist terrorism and you want to squabble over two words in the pledge. Now THAT is what's sad.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anakin:[QB]Starting from the top:
And yes, the majority of the people in this nation think the ruling was wrong, so what? Do we go with the majority and take the rights of the minority?[/QB]

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Anakin look up Democracy in the dictionary. If you do I'm sure you will find that, whether the desicions are right or wrong, in a democracy, the majority makes the decisions.

But aside from that... Why does this matter, it has been 50 some years since this has been added and no one complained. 50 years is a LOOONG time, the fact that this thing even got to the supreme court is a testament to just how petty us americans are. Geez.

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My Characters: Rathal, Narcolm, Freedon Naad

You claim you want to go into politics.

Learn some diplomacy.

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Before someone hear loses an eye, perhaps we should stop this argument? everyone has the right to there opinion, and everyone's opinion is a valid one, no one, has a right to force there opinion on someone else, in saying this, i know the reply will of course be from anakin

"Thats why we have to change, we cant force our opinion on others" but no one forces anything, we do have the right to just say, sorry, i cant, i dont believe in this... in fact, the few poeple that i know, that stick to there belief that there is no god, our the few people that take the pledge seriously, they dont care that it say's "under god" they know that thats not the point of the pledge, that is simply to show that we love our nation, and would do anything for it... But as i said, we need to stop, before someone, mainly me as i seem to provoke people for some unknown reason, loses an eye, or a leg for that manor...

--this is Recinis's last post for this topic

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Chuckles.

Now at the risk of instigating another heated debate I just wish to say that THIS is why we will never have a global community on this earth. Nope, nope, nope, it just isn't going to happen. The silly little interbrain connection between emotion and logic precludes this from ever happening... though I wish it would come about one day, I just fear that human's natural tendency to flare over what they believe and unwillingness to accept other views is going to be a stumbling block of momumental proportions.

And please, by "accept other views" I DO NOT mean "assimilate them into one's own belief system." I mean them as they are written: accept that the other person has his or her own belief regarding a touchy subject, and leave it at that.

I guess it's called understanding.

And now I just wish to formally and publically apologize for the possibility that any of my words here were inflammatory.

[ 06-28-2002 10:40 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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Isn't the Constitution itself scattered with references to god, or the people and land under god, or something? I know it's been forever since I've read it, but I think it's in there.

Sooo... would this then make the Constitution, erm... unconstitutional?

Maybe I'm thinking of the Declaration of Independence. Time to do a little research.

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My Characters: Rathal, Narcolm, Freedon Naad

And Anakin, I have more principle than you ever will know.

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May I quote:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them..."

and:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

The Constitution says there will be no "religious test" in assuming/running for offices. And so on and so forth. And I don't believe it EVER was a law or anything that children were required to recite the Pledge. Therefore it's just as stupid declaring it unconstitutional as it would be declaring the Declaration as such.

Again, it's reflection of our nation at the time it was drafted... or added onto. Let it remain the piece of tradition it is supposed to be, and those who don't want to recite it simply don't have to.

As for the "poor kid subjected to LISTENING to it..." HELL'S BELLS. I wish I could sue someone everytime I heard something personally offensive to me! That was just ignorant, clearly fishing for easy $$$.

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1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2 : a political unit that has a democratic government
3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the U.S.
4 : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

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Now, unless there is a hidden amendment somewhere that I missed, or I skimmed the Constitution too fast, this is all I could find concerning the "forced establishment of any religion." (Quotes mine.)

Now... TO REPEAT... unless it has been an ESTABLISHED LAW to recite the Pledge, I just don't see the reason to rule it unconstitutional due to the two words, "under God."

Still researching... but I don't think I'll find that it was a national law or anything. It was something left up to the states, and then the buck got passed down to the schools.

Therefore, I just can't see the Pledge of Allegiance as being unconstitutional. Hehe... why else would the Honorable (???) Whatsisname who handed down the ruling be back-pedalling so much now?

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Graysith, you call it a difference of opinion, I call it ignorance. Your reasons for having that opinion are wrong, unless of course you'd rather we not have a constitution.

Recinis, no one will lose an eye, we're all still friends outside of this thread. And, no, not everyone's opinion is valid. You must have evidence to back up your reasoning, valid evidence. My evidence is valid, it's the constitution.

Look folks, I'm not trying to force you to believe what I'm saying, I giving you evidence, clear evidence. Everyone who knows me knows I like to debate this stuff, because I have a chance to educate you, some people are just too stubborn to see the facts. Example: you have got to realize the importance of the Constitution in our government. Then you have to look at this ruling, and it's reasons, doing this shows you it's right. Then you put those two together, and say, "maybe we've been wrong the past 50 years."

Mara, the Declaration is a peice of history, it's not unconstitutional to say it, it's educational. And I know you have principle, but you apparently don't undertand the importance of the constitution.

The declaration cannot be called unconstitutional as it was written before the constitution, and by future citizens living under the constitution. I hate how you, Graysith, get pissed at the idea of calling something important in our history unconstitutional, even if it really is. All that is is ignoring the facts, which is called ignorance.

I know the atheist who brought this forth is a pussy, but it's a test for the American people and for the Constitution.

Graysith, the reason in my mind for it being unconstitutional goes back to 1953. Congress added the words "under God," and as was pointed out earlier by someone, God with a "G" and not a "g" is the christian god. Congress respected that religion, and that is unconstitutional. The idea isn't to stop the pledge from being said in school, it's to stop the faculty from organizing it. See, they're paid by tax money, which also comes from some atheists. Why would an atheist want his money spent on people who tell their kids to say "under God." And all of you in school or teaching, those kids who don't say the pledge, especially nowadays, are unamerican to the other students.

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Excuse me, but a difference of opinion is NOT ignorance.

Refusing to discern the difference between the two IS.

Calling a person wrong: who is to say WHO IS WRONG? By what standards? And WHEN. Who is the overseer to declare, "this opinion is wrong and this opinion is right?" NO ONE. OPINIONS ARE BELIEFS, AND NOT SUBJECT TO BEING RIGHT OR WRONG.

Wake up.

I still say it is totally ridiculous that an idiot in California who is out for some easy cash IS able to do this. Our constitution, which allows the right to do just this, perhaps has gone TOO far in that such idiocy abounds, taking up valuable time and resources.

It is still absolutely nuts that this has been brought on the carpet. What about all the Americans who want it to remain as it is? As Mara pointed out, isn't that what a democracy is all about?

The little twit in CA isn't being forced to say the Pledge. And what you mean about "they don't want the faculty to organize it..." Organize what? Making a formal time to recite this? How the heck do you think this ought to BE accomplished then; just willy-nilly throughout the day? Again, ridiculous.

Reciting the pledge is not compromising the reciter into "being forced to believe in God." As it is AS I KEEP SAYING a reflection of the country when it BECAME a country (hence the same theme in the Declaration) reciting it just acknowledges THAT FACT... as well as pledging faith unto our country.

I think the guy in California should be sent off to Bora Bora....

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The guy in California didn't get cash for doing this. IT'S CALLED PRINCIPLE. If you read the constitution, you know why he did it. His daughter is being raised an atheist and every single day she has to sit there and listen to her classmates recite the pledge. Even if she doesn't say it the other kids are gonna make an outcast of her, call her unamerican, that is what the Constitution, and particularly the First Amendment, serves to protect.

Yes, we have a Democracy. We also have a Constitution, which is the law of the land. Even if the majority of Americans want something, they can't get it if it's unconstitutional. If they could, why the fuck would we have a constitution?

No, Graysith, stop being stupid. Every morning a few minutes can be given to do whatever you want, pray, pledge, anything.

You are not clear headed, because I know you're smarter than this. This thread is closed.

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