He do have some sanctions on China, I think. But, for some reason, money and trade is much more important than those people in death camps in China, because we do nothing about it but issue our yearly report. I just don't understand recent Presidents. This year, after we issued our report, they issued theirs about us. It was so loaded with BS that if the President was a good and smart President, he would have had a press conference, read off the things China listed, and blow them down.

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Ani - going back to your posts before my last post that i didn't get to aznswer yet:
Isreal - I didn't say that thier having a big army and fighting constinently was HELPING them or WORKING for them but more people understand WHY they have an army like they do because they ARE still in the middle of a war - my statement was meant to mean that in contrast to us where we have a big army but have NOT been at war they have a big army cause they ARE at war - the two go together much more logically for most people than big army without war or threat of war.
As for Foreign films there are A LOT of quality foriegn films but they are practically impossible for us to find - Taxi is a great example! Never heard of it - didn't think you would have. It's the funniest story about this taxi driver who supes (sp?) up his taxi so it can go race car fast and installs all these features for the passengers who inevitably get sick riding in it - he can make it fly for a little bit by driving off a steep enough ramp etc... And there just happens to be this international high tech crime thing going down in the city where he lives and his girlfriends brother works for the European equivalent of the CIA the two of them use his super fast "flying" taxi and end up beating the bad guys by simply confusing them in a car switch (they repaint the taxi to match the diplomat's car and stuff - in anycase it's great it's Hilarious - but you'll never see it or the further adventures of this awesome Taxi in the States - not without really really searching (and then you'd still have to be in a huge city) or look at Amelie - that was a foreign film and a HUGE success in the states - we just need to open up a bit and let others in - our businesses hold on to the markets in the states to jealously which isn't fair as there is alot of great stuff outside of Hollywood and they EXPECT the rest of the world to go crazy over their films (which aren't always that good and the good ones they DON'T sell over here - Beautiful Mind comes to my mind as one they never tried to get across the sea) not to meantion that just about all the films they sell over here put out a VERY BAD image of the states - that Harvard Bimbo story for one.

French Kids do alot more cultural stuff than we EVER did. You show yourself to be quite prejudiced against the French and I don't know why but I think you should try to actually learn a bit more about them before you say anymore. What do you actually KNOW about the French besides the stereotypes?
""we pushed our culture on everyone and everything not like it is seen as bad"

When? When did the American government force other nations to have McDonalds?"

Not our government in this case - but our attitude and our businesses - who often don't ask the people of a region if they want thier product/store there before putting it up.
""- I came here not to escape a terrible life like many of them but to expand my knowledge of world customs and ideas"

You were taught in America. It was that "brainwashing" of American schools that made you want to learn about other nations. "

No actually it was the lack of opportunity to learn about them in the states and the overabundance of info on simply our little country that made me want to go - I came here because I wanted to learn what I never could in American schools and that was further determined by the fact that I work with internationals at Girl Scout camp every summer and while they can tell me anything I want to know about thier cutures the cultures of the rest of the nations in Europe of Asia AND of OUR culture I could tell them nothing about anywhere but the States - that made it even more apparent how LACKING in Culture AMERICAN SCHOOLS are!

""I also never said that the reason I found for WTC was a GOOD reason - but it was a reason that can't be denied - it accomplished that task very well and while it wasn't good or justified it was a reason and it did work - you can not say it didn't - otherwise why are our BOYS over there fighting and risking thier lives?"

It did not accomplish the task binny and his bussies were hoping for. "

I didn't say it accomplished the task that HE WANTED it to - I said that that was the reason I gave it as it HELPS ME deal with the fact that my cousins were inside when they fell - that was MY PERSONAL REASON which I had stated before - the one that I CHOSE for myself that I will continue to believe until something better resolves out of all this - if something better resolves out of all that - OUr Gov's attention was gotten - they did take action maybe now they will start really looking at how others see us and start dealing with that by trying to improve our image and hospitability towards the rest of the world - then they won't have died in vain.
"I've realized it over and over, that's why i clarified the term "euro trash.""

They AREN'T ALL EUROPEAN EITHER - the Europeans are the MINORITY!!!

"but please, leave France, you're forgetting how to use these two things: , . "

Sorry - Punctuation was never my strong point in school - ask my English teachers - my worst class - spelling was never up there either for that matter or verb tenses....

MAra - ""...they find the French more accomodating than us - and they would be right - it's so easy to get in here as opposed to getting in back home..."
Guess that's why your classmates are lacking in logic and the ability to think for themselves. "

I don't understand what you mean here. If they find htem more accomodating it is because they have a much easier time getting into the system over here - escaping to France is MUCH easier than escaping to the US. As with the Unemployment aspect of it France has a much higher unemployment rate than we do 13% and rising - they still open thier doors much more freely than we do. I didn't say the US was the HARDEST place to get into either - i simply said it was harder than France.

"And WHY do you think that Israel needs a big army and we don't after the events of 9/11"

Not AFTER 9/11 I don't think we do but we didn't - in most people's eyes (including mine I would have rather Clinton spent some more of that military budget of his on Education) BEFORE 9/11 we really didn't.
As with Laisez - Faire - no it didn't work in WWII but anyone could have seen that coming with BOTH HITLER (and Mussini to a lesser extent) AND the Japanese EMPEROR DECLARING practically that they wanted to take over the world - of course it wouldn't have worked then - but it could work now - I see no crazed dictators trying to take over the world right now - do you? If one comes up we can build up the Army again but we didn't need it before 9/11 and we shouldn't after we finish this war.
Yes we are the wealthiest nation in the world - that doesn't mean we have to put our money into the Military - why not send a bit more to jump start African Economies - or put more into our schools - start a nice National Healthcare system for our poor - some of whom still die of preventable diseases because they can't afford health care - trust me I know people in the US who have (I live out in the backwoods where there are ALOT of poor - half my town practically depends on Welfare) There are plent of other more constructive things we can do with our money - we aren't obligated to use it to kill or build forces which have the ability to kill!!
"You talk about the fact that the other countries hate us and don't want us in their affairs. In the same breath you THEN say that we don't pay them any attention til it's bad enough to warrant military action. "
They hate us because they think we only care about them when our military was needed but they have admitted that if we had first shown a Humanitarian Equality type effort first they wouldn't feel the same way - it's like (to them) that we only look for the glory in helping people - not really being helpful.
"If you are all hot and bothered about us shoving our lifestyle on other countries, then WHY do you think we should go parading in offering our help if we haven't been asked? Wouldn't that be shoving ourselves onto them? "
Sending doctors where there is little health care or food where there is a need is not sending cultural aspects like Mc Donalds where people don't generally eat food like that. It's simply helping in a way that they need in order to survive - and we don't have to "advertise" our presence in a big way either - just let the people know the services are there for them if they want them.
And Yes the Military is lives we don't want to squander but try explaining why we don't go in to one place and help cause it looks too dangerous for us when we go into another that outwardly looks the same to the people of the first.
"And judging what your pals seem to THINK they know about Americans, I don't think you should be arguing that the knowledge they DO receive is all that great."

Remember my Friends are not French - the school system I meantioned was the French system purposly pointing out that this was not the case for these friends. As for our school system - you must live in a good state for that - it's not federally required and we certainly NEVER talked about anyone else culturewise in NY!!
As for the cultural awareness in the Concrete Operational stage - it is possible they may not fully grasp it but starting cultural stuff younger helps the integrate it better. (The "cut off" age for Foriegn Language learning is 7 - ie if starting lessons before the age of 7 there is practically a 100% guarantee that the student can acheive Native Language fluency in a second language - after that age the % who do drops off drastically)
"You can empathize with your friend. But if s/he expects every American to APOLOGIZE for that, then I guess s/he needs to start apologizing for Pearl Harbor."
He did.

Now for the bits after my last post:
GS - "You are coming across from a VERY SUBJECTIVE point of view."

I already SAID that I was going to be giving ONLY OPINIONS bacause to UNDERSTAND another group of PEOPLE you have to UNDERSTAND thier OPINIONS - our world is built on opinions more than facts - that is Human nature - that is something you will learn (you said you were in 7th grade, right?) My suggestion to you is to take a Psych class as soon as you can - you will learn that humans are inheriently EMOTIONAL BEINGS - not like you couldn't figure that out for yourself - and that therefore to understand them you MUST understand thier FEELINGS and OPINIONS no matter what the facts say!!! I appreciate that you are trying to be objective and give facts but I'm NOT interested in the facts - I know them, you know them that's great BUT we need to deal with the SUBJECTIVITY of the PEOPLE we are dealing with in order to resolve disputes with them - logic doesn't solve every problem - trying to think from thier point of view doesn't always either but that is a good start.
"One can scarcely base a successful presentation on such statements as, "I know PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO THINK (ie: "believe") "

When the topic is EMOTION - this is the ONLY way as what people think, believe, and feel is the center of the "problem".

As for your project - that great that you have been able to do that - we never did - the school system is slowly changing slowly incorporating new things - but it's not doing enough fast enough - we need to really reform it and quickly - but that is always a controversial topic...

I also keep bring up the past because you keep asking for examples in our past... I never claimed ANY country has a perfet past - but we are talking about ours and ours alone as the rest of the world views it now.

I'm glad we have learned from history I never denied it - but others aren't sure if we learned well enough - we have to prove to them that we did before they will be completely trusting.

Ani - "It's a state thing, I seriously doubt that they forced you to do it. "

Let me quote my Homeroom teacher for you, "If you all don't stand up, be quiet and say that Pledge NOW you will all have detention for the rest of your LIVES!" I think that was her worst morning but it happened - and we did what we were told cause well she loved giving out detentions!!!
"It's the Chinese government who limits the people to one child, what else can you expect but for the people to want a son so they're family doesn't end with them. "
YEs thier system has it's flaws - but it is the traditional values that the boys are better than the girls that they act on - and it is still illegal and the gov is trying to stop it - but overpopulation will destroy the country and without the limits it will happen even faster than it already is!
As for the deathcamps - it takes cold hard proof to do anything about them and we don't have anywhere near enough! As for what their gov said about us - remember they are a big country with nuclear weapons they have to be dealt with democratically - we certainly DON'T WANT them turning AGAINST US!!!!

OK that's all I have to say - though I do agree with GS that we should really drop this as obviously noone even agrees on what angle we are talking about and it is only getting tempers up - besides grammar is killing me and i don't want to annoy Ani with anymore of my bad punctuation or spelling - and I'm leaving for 2 weeks soon so I'll never catch back up.....
How about we just amicably agree to disagree and leave it at that - I hope we all can understand eachother better now and maybe we can understand the points of veiw of others in our world better in the future.

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First of all, your breezy statement of "our world is built on opinions more than fact" is so ridiculous it scarcely merits a response. If THAT statement were true then we would have no industrialization, no technology, no space program, and would be stuck back in the Middle Ages. There would have been many more wars throughout history, less recognition of each other, and our lifespan would probably be somewhere in the 30-35 year range. We would still believe the world is flat and you could sail off the edge where "there be dragons" waiting to devour you. Myriad wonders of the world would be permanently beyond our reach; people would still vow and declare mermaids exist (dugongs) and dragons (komodo lizards) and unicorns (arabian oryx). I could go on and on, but I shall refrain.

To continue: EXCUUUUSE MOI!!! WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?!? Apparently you have misread somewhere: I am SCARCELY in 7th grade any longer; I thought I had written I was filling in for a 7th grade geography teacher. (Did I not say that I lead this class in 7 short weeks through as much Russian history as I could?) I happen to have a bachelor's degree in HUMAN BEHAVIOR and a Master's in Education (endorsed in earth, biological and general physical sciences; two classes from one in physics) -- I have taught for over six years for two universities in Des Moines, Iowa (physical sciences and astronomy) and have worked for a year with another professor in the humanities. I have given several public speeches in topics dealing with astronomy. Furthermore, I have traveled somewhat to Europe, Scandinavia, Mexico, Canada and some of the West Indies and everywhere in the United States except the far NE and Alaska; some business, some pleasure, and some to stay awhile with friends. Thus I PERSONALLY feel I have a background rounded enough to know precisely what I mean when I say:

YOU MISSED THE POINT AGAIN.

I already stated the problem IS dealing with human emotions, which will muck things up every durned time. In order to solve ANYTHING we must be logical and deal with facts. Yes I am fully aware that people are emotional beings and this will probably never come along in our lifetimes. But as long as we are butting heads together fired by feeling and not thought, NOTHING WILL BE SOLVED. NOTHING.

Why? Because NO TWO PEOPLE EVER FEEL ALIKE about something. There is always some degree of difference between them. There will always be some inherent jealousy or disagreement or hatred or something. They might agree on the surface, but on down the road it seems as though it never fails that something arises to get tempers flaring over minutia, and there goes the agreement out the window.

May I point to the recent ridiculousness in the Mid-east yet again? The peace talks seemed to be heading in a good direction... then some unthinking idiots operating out of rage starts even more actively blowing up Israel YET AGAIN. BOTH sides had admitted they want this OVER. BOTH sides said they want to come to an agreement, and were striving to get there. Then this happens, and out of anger our ally pulls back. Apparently even when trying to understand the FEELINGS of another, to gain peace, there will always be someone objecting to what is happening over the peace table. (I wonder if they are so used to this war that they just can't imagine life without it, and it's frightening? Kinda like the new commonwealth nations being loosed from the iron thumb of the old USSR.)

I seriously do not think mankind will EVER quit his petty squabbling with himself. To many variables, too many misperceptions of each other and unwillingness to accept data offerred (facts presented, information about self and other nations, etc.) simply due to mistrust. That is what I fear many of your classmates are going through in their perceptions of us here. Where you get your perceptions in your short span on this planet (dare I say you are around perhaps 24?) I can only speculate as from a school district that needs better teachers. Or else you simply weren't paying attention during school, too busy with... well, you alluded to your "less than perfect" manners somewhere along the way in your posts.

I think you need to remember your English... and make more of an effort to understand exactly what is being posted in this thread. I suspect that you may be missing quite a bit; I did feel all along that your replies were a touch "selective."

[ 03-22-2002 04:38 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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I am getting SUCH A KICK out of how you keep using your small worldview, and that of your classmates, to judge NATIONS. Nowhere do I see any attempt on your part to raise fact, or at least respond to the facts (by showing us in your replies that you have tried to research what we have been saying, to realize that what we have presented has been as factual as we could make it) which we have written in our responses to you. Everything so far has been based on either your opinion or that of your classmates. Based on opinions of others. Don't you feel this to be just a touch wee biased then?

Example: so because ONE teacher in your school "threatened" the class to recite the Pledge "or else," our whole NATION is somehow proven to FORCE this on its students??? Now that of course is the faultiest logic I have ever heard in my life. Again, extremely subjective... and the very root of what ails relations between so many nations today. Proof enough to support my opinion that logic must be maintained, facts dug up to present as PROOF of an "atrocity" occurring. Only then can a "perceived problem" be recognized as a REAL problem, and measures begun to deal with it. Otherwise beliefs rally round the old, "(supposedly) Everyone says it is so; therefore it must be true!" flag. Modern nations and peoples with modern, up-to-date world views recognize how damaging subjective reasoning can be, and strive to remain away from it. Education has brought enlightenment. It's others who refuse to be enlightened, who refuse to accept facts but stubbornly adhere to opinionated biases and emotions that are at the root of the majority of the world's ills.

And that, my dear, is what Peace Talks are all about. They are used to pinpoint fact, to separate the chaff of rumor and hearsay from the grain of truth, and act accordingly. Unfortunately, there are way too many others who find it so much easier to simply act on FEELINGS... out of their own small opinions and heated emotions. And this is why I fear truly amicable relations in many cases will never come about in our lifetime. Not truly. The best we can really do is just sit back and let each other run their own show...

...which is exactly what our nation has done throughout its history unless ASKED by other nations to step in with a helping hand.

[ 03-22-2002 11:58 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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*POINTS TO THE FACT THAT WE HAVE MAINTAINED OUR MILITARY, although we have downgraded some. Simply said, SUCCESS as a deterrent. Rests case.*

"...They hate us because they think we only care about them when our military was needed but they have admitted that if we had first shown a Humanitarian Equality type effort first they wouldn't feel the same way - it's like (to them) that we only look for the glory in helping people - not really being helpful.
"If you are all hot and bothered about us shoving our lifestyle on other countries, then WHY do you think we should go parading in offering our help if we haven't been asked? Wouldn't that be shoving ourselves onto them? "
Sending doctors where there is little health care or food where there is a need is not sending cultural aspects like Mc Donalds where people don't generally eat food like that. It's simply helping in a way that they need in order to survive - and we don't have to "advertise" our presence in a big way either - just let the people know the services are there for them if they want them...."

*Points to Red Cross. Points to UNICEF. Points to history of missionaries from our churches, which are helping overseas. Points to Peace Corps. Points to Children's Foundation. Probably could point to more....*

And do you honestly believe that every store opened in Zurich or Amsterdam or Munich or Paris or Stockholm or points farther east was placed there at the BEHEST OF THE PEOPLE? Did these businesses take a survey? C'mon now, be realistic!

Personally, I believe you are alluding to your eastern European pals, into whose arena, yes, we now have put a McDonalds. They are opening up to consumerism. Heh... let us show you the way, if you need direction. I scarcely can believe we FORCED McDonald's on them, sheesh. Get realistic. They didn't have to sell or lease us the land or property now, did they, if they didn't want this there.

Finally... in my travels, I have seen plenty of McDonald's, heh... and I've NEVER seen an empty one. And believe me, the majority of the people in those McDonalds' were NOT speaking English!

[ 03-22-2002 04:41 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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That movie that you're decribing sounds extremely corny. I have yet to hear of a foreign film that is the eqivalent of Gladiator. There are some good foreign films, Roberto Bonini's film A Beautiful Life, or whatever it was called, was good. But until they can make movies like gladiator, we won't watch most of their stuff, cause we don't like the corniness of it and/or we've done it before. The Harvard bimbo story was semi-funny. And if they wanna assume we are the way we like our films, have them watch the thousand other films that show how we really are, not the comedies. I guess I should assume that europeans are corny, since all their films seem to be corny, right?

I plan on going to France to see it for myself when I'm older, but until then I can only rely on what other people who have gone have told me, and it's been pretty much negative.

"Not our government in this case - but our attitude and our businesses - who often don't ask the people of a region if they want thier product/store there before putting it up. "

If they didn't want it, they wouldn't eat, or buy it, and the store would be closed. Simple as that.

Look, this year, we did World Civ, that means we learned about the past of all european nations, asian nations, and middle eastern nations. The past is what determines the culture of a place. No, I can't tell you the favorite food of a nation, or their favorite dance, that happens next year, in Humanities.

Sure, 9/11 made our government do something about the threat, and for that reason, I wouldn't take it back. But before now you were saying it as if binny would be glad he did what he did.

" "I've realized it over and over, that's why i clarified the term "euro trash.""

They AREN'T ALL EUROPEAN EITHER - the Europeans are the MINORITY!!!"

SHUT UP! JESUS CHRIST AND LATTERDAY SAINTS, MY GOD, GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD! Euro Trash is NOT JUST EUROPEANS, it's all people who decide to sit there and bitch about our country when they've never been here, and when they can find the truth but don't. And don't say many came from nations where they couldn't, because in france they can, and that's where they are.

Of course it'd hard to get into the US, have you ever heard of terrorists, drugs, nukes, and the cold war?

I quit reading after that, you wrote too much and I don't have the time.

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Let me try to clarify what i meant in the our World is built on opinions thing... Basically what I meant is we can never escape them - they are always there and can't be avoided - we need to deal with them. Yes Science and technology has done a lot for us but it doesn't change human nature or the fact that we will always rely on opinion and emotion in our daily lives - the world would cease to be what it is if that changed - life would cease to be worth living!

"I already stated the problem IS dealing with human emotions, which will muck things up every durned time. In order to solve ANYTHING we must be logical and deal with facts. "

This is where I disagree with you - Emotions are a part of life yes - they are always there - then why not try to use them to HELP Solve the problems? - I can be done - I've seen it done - but it is HARDER to do. It is still worth a try. True no two people will or could ever feel the exact same thing about something but if we work to UNDERSTAND how the other feels and approach them in that context - appologize, explain, whatever the emotion calls for we will be able to solve a lot more problems cause then the emotion doesn't get in the way it guides the solution. This does take work from both sides though - which makes it harder. Both sides have to WANT the resolution and the understanding - but it can be done - I do have confidence in our species to make it through IF they put in the effort. True petty squabbling may never cease but we can work to decrease it - that's all we can hope for at least right now.

"Or else you simply weren't paying attention during school, too busy with... well, you alluded to your "less than perfect" manners somewhere along the way in your posts."

Trust me I paid attention in school and I don't know where you get the less then perfect manners from since I only talked about homeroom which is the beginning of the day and therefore the first thing that happens thereby it's quite normal for students to be gossiping before things get going.

Trust me I remember my English just fine - well the grammar is going but then I never was good with that in the first place... I DO understand what you are saying but as I said before I DON'T CARE about facts I have been talking about how to deal with the' EMOTION SIDE of things and ONLY that - which I have said before - I have agreed with you that all the facts you have given are true - that does NOT change the emotion of others! So therby to me they mean about the same as apparently what others feel do to you. I'm not interested.

"Everything so far has been based on either your opinion or that of your classmates. Based on opinions of others. Don't you feel this to be just a touch wee biased then?"

Not when those Opinions are the topic of which one is trying to speak.

"Example: so because ONE teacher in your school "threatened" the class to recite the Pledge "or else," our whole NATION is somehow proven to FORCE this on its students??? "

I just gave one teacher as an example - that was our schools policy and is for the most part the policy of our state at least - there are not to many of my classmates at uni in the US that don't remember being so required to do so in public school - granted we are all from the same part of the nation so it could be a regional thing but we would never have thought that.

"SUCCESS as a deterrent"

It wasn't too successful this year (ok last year) was it? it didn't stop them from doing what they "wanted" didn't phase them at all - it's becoming more of a joke to have a large army with out an immediate war threat to them now.

"*Points to Red Cross. Points to UNICEF. Points to history of missionaries from our churches, which are helping overseas. Points to Peace Corps. Points to Children's Foundation. Probably could point to more....*"

None of these is Government run - and the Red Cross was actually started in Switzerland - or at least it is the Swiss who get the credit - at least on this side of the ocean.

"And do you honestly believe that every store opened in Zurich or Amsterdam or Munich or Paris or Stockholm or points farther east was placed there at the BEHEST OF THE PEOPLE? Did these businesses take a survey? "

I don't believe that everyone was but I do know that some were - ie the 5 that they have had to shut down in this "little" city (ie it's little compared to NYC but it is about equal with Albany - in only comparing to cities i know well) and the other 2 are supported largely by the American students which are abundant in the Unis here... And i have no idea about the survey bit - wouldn't know where to go to ask them either.

Ani - I didn't think the movie was Corny - it was kinda like a Speed type thing which was an awesome movie - you have to admit Speed was great - this just happened to be a taxi - another good French Movie would be Au Revoir Les Enfants - if you haven't seen it I would suggest it but with a HUGE box of Kleenex (ok I needed a huge box of kleenex but then i cried at HP too... you did NOT read that forget what you saw I will deny everything...) It's a true story about the Holocaust which takes place in a private Catholic school that is hiding Jewish boys (it's an all boys school) from the Germans by taking them as students - I won't tell you anymore cause that will ruin the sad part - but it is a very very very good film the guy that wrote it was actually one of the main characters (as it was in a way an autobiography dedicated to his best friend) But ya know - Movies are very subjective - as I couldn't stand Gladiator - but apparently you liked it so our taste in movies differs - I also hated the Bimbo movie... As with the watching the good films - ya know it's funny those aren't the ones that our movie companies try to sell over here - granted LOTR and HP came out in France but everyone already loved the books - Beautiful Mind however hasn't neither hazs Godford park - well it has this week in a special orginal version movie week in this city - but only in this city... They tend to only get the comedies or big budget Sci Fi stuff... Though they did get Titanic - apparently girls over here resist his charm no less than American girls do...

As for relying on what people ahve told you - I'd be interested in knowing exactly what that is (on France) as I have really enjoyed this year - besides the decisive lack of good meat - boy do I miss Taco Bell and BBQ's not to meantion good thick crusted pizza.... Ok now I'm making myself hungry...

"If they didn't want it, they wouldn't eat, or buy it, and the store would be closed. Simple as that"

YOu should see the number of failed American Chains here...

"But before now you were saying it as if binny would be glad he did what he did."

No if you read my first post where I put that reason in I said it was my own to help me deal with the loss of my family - I NEVER said it was his or even hinted that it might have been.

"Euro Trash is NOT JUST EUROPEANS"

By putting the Word "Euro" in there you subliminally say it IS Europeans and that is what I've been trying to put across to you - you can't do that and not insult people - so just don't - try to understand them - which you aren't doing no matter how many times I try explaining.

"And don't say many came from nations where they couldn't, because in france they can, and that's where they are."

THEY DID COME FROM nations where they couldn't look for facts not given to them by thier Government - yes NOW they are in France but you have to UNDERSTAND the language to look for information in it right?
I'm sure you will agree to this as it is simply common sense. And they DON'T know the language - not yet - that is what they are doing in this school - and trust me I've done 8 years of French and know the language very well - but I understand nothing they say on the news - absolutely nothing - and most things on TV are like that - so no they still don't have the ability to find the facts that you want them too.

"Of course it'd hard to get into the US, have you ever heard of terrorists, drugs, nukes, and the cold war? "

Yes and the Cold War has been over for OVER 10 years - nor should that affect people from our Allied nations or people who are already in the country - and have been for YEARS - refugees go where it is easiest for them to go - which makes perfect sense to me even if they do have other choices - that is why there are so many more here that in the States. Plain and simple.

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People will believe what they want so long as you pet their feelings. Just because I love America and am very dedicated to the nation doesn't mean that will change a European's view of America as a horrible society. I honestly don't think they'd care. If they are bent on hating us, they aren't going to care two cents if we love the country. In fact, it's very apparent they don't care.

What just MIGHT change their minds is a clear presentation OF FACTS about the country that cannot be denied. That's the only think that will change their emotions. I can say "I love America" over and over and a French person won't care. BUT I can point to the times that we've helped them out and that just might get their attention.

And if THAT doesn't get their attention, NOTHING WILL. You can pet their emotions and try to commiserate with them but so long as they are bent on hating us regardless of the facts that have been presented, NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, will change their feelings or their minds.

But don't you go listening to all their emotions and forget the facts that YOU SHOULD KNOW.

You whine about having to say the pledge...it seems to me you have CLEARLY forgotten that in saying the pledge we are remembering all of those WHO FOUGHT AND DIED FOR THE FREEDOMS SO MANY OF US TAKE FOR GRANTED. You talk about how the facts aren't available to your friends in France. HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN THAT YOU HAVE THE FACTS AT YOUR DISPOSAL BECAUSE THOUSANDS...MAYBE MORE...DIED SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE THAT?

AND YOU WANT TO THEN JUST BASE ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS ON EMOTIONS?

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

If you think America is just so terrible, take a look at your less than free pals who can't even get the facts from their own government. And if after that the place still looks so wonderful, why don't you take your blessed citizenship in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and get out? Maybe then you will realize what you truly have.

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS
ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, INDIVISABLE,
WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

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The comment about the Cold War being over for over ten years...

WHY DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD FORGET ABOUT THAT WITHIN A DECADE WHEN ONLY A BIT AGO YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT OUR NEED TO APOLOGIZE FOR THE A-BOMB, SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED DECADES AGO?

Look at the things YOU are saying. You have repeatedly contradicted YOURSELF. This is just one example.

[ 03-26-2002 03:19 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Mara1Jade ]

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Like Speed? Yea, a flying taxi....just like Speed...

I've seen that french movie, only it wasn't french when I saw it, must have been remade for one of the languages...it wasn't a bad movie, but it wasn't all that interesting either though (don't bitch just because it's about the holocaust).

What was wrong with Gladiator? Please, tell me. You must really hate history to not like that movie. Even if you don't care much for Roman history, it would still be awesome to see it come to life the way it did in that movie.

Yea, some American chains fail overseas, and the store will close. But the ones that don't fail, mainly McDonalds, is still there, because they still eat it.

"By putting the Word "Euro" in there you subliminally say it IS Europeans and that is what I've been trying to put across to you - you can't do that and not insult people - so just don't - try to understand them - which you aren't doing no matter how many times I try explaining."

Eat my butt. I explained it to you, if you don't get it, stop whining about it. I don't care what someone thinks when they see that, all they have to do is confront me and ask "what the hell is that supposed to mean?" and I'll tell em.

Apparently france isn't as cool as the US, because we have newspapers in all different languages, granted most of those are biased, but they at least give you more info than you get in china.

"Yes and the Cold War has been over for OVER 10 years"

Except the fact that those in power were raised with the cold war mentality.

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"If you think America is just so terrible,"

I NEVER said it was terrible - i simply said we really need to work on HOW we try to relate to others cause we DO put ourselves across in a very poor manner to those that have never lived there - we NEED to deal with that or we will ALWAYS be hated by the rest of the world.
As tfor the Cold War quote thing - I was not talking about the same thing there as in the A-Bomb thing - I meantioned the Cold War being over for 10 years as a reference to the fact that it no longer directs or foriegn policy towards those nations as was suggested in a post before - the A-Bomb thing goes right back to those still raw emotions that soem hold against us that we need to deal with first and foremost - they were not meant to agree - policies have definitely changed in the governments since the Cold War - Trust me I've been working on going to Russia in a week and it will be possible - and it hasn't been THAT difficult for me - as for 10 years ago when my Aunt was in Europe (ok it was a bit more then 10 years ago but the point being during the Cold War) it was impossible - unthinkable for them to give her a VISA to go - me I just have to go talk to them next Week in Paris and I'm all set! that is the difference those 10 years made - however my Mom still would go crazy if she knew I was going before I went cause the EMOTION of the Cold war is still there as it the emotion from the A-Bomb - they are 2 different aspects of life.

Anakin - ""logic doesn't solve every problem"
What planet do you live on? "
A realistic one - you can't say that just by being logical it really solves the problems that are more emotional - if you think that now wait until you live a bit longer - logic NEVER solves those problems - you will never convince me otherwise as I've dealt with too many of them and the more people try to be logical about them the worse it is for the people DEALING with them - as an outsider yeah logic might seem easy and it might seem like a good solution but it only makes the people involved FEEL WORSE - it will never solve every problem as long as Humans are by nature emotional beings.

"Yea, a flying taxi....just like Speed..."

Yes very much like Speed - he races up a drawbridge as it is being raised and "jumps" off Flying across to the other side - landing successfully - I remember quite a few cars doing that same thing in Speed - he just does it a lot and pops out these little tiny balance things to hop off roofs and over the bad guys car to save the Ambassador...

"I've seen that french movie, only it wasn't french when I saw it, must have been remade for one of the languages...it wasn't a bad movie, but it wasn't all that interesting either though (don't bitch just because it's about the holocaust)."

Well the original was in French but it has been voiced over in most languages (I actually watched it in English the first time in HS) and why would I complain that you didn't like it just because it is about the Holocaust everyone has a right to thier own opinions I'm not going to Force you to like it if you didn't - that would be Immature.

"What was wrong with Gladiator? Please, tell me. You must really hate history to not like that movie. "

No I like history alot - I found the movie was WAY too violent and I don't particularly like violent movies - I felt the same way about Pearl Harbor and Saving Private Ryan - I liked Braveheart and the Patriot only for the nonBattle parts - and the leading actor whom I find to be very good at showing the charater's real emotions - as if you were just talking to the character themselves - or watching a home video on thier lives - as I said - choice in movies is very personal - I hate'd Gladiator that doesn't mean I don't think others should like it.

"Eat my butt. I explained it to you, if you don't get it, stop whining about it. I don't care what someone thinks when they see that, all they have to do is confront me and ask "what the hell is that supposed to mean?" and I'll tell em."

Sorry but that is VERY RUDE and it will get you into trouble later on in life so you might just as well drop the stereotypical remarks now before they DO block you from getting something that you want.

"Apparently france isn't as cool as the US, because we have newspapers in all different languages, "

They do have papers in other languages but like ours they all come from the country in which that language is spoken thereby the have all the censorship of the immigrants' native lands and so is the same for them azs if they were still in thier homeland until they can understand the French enough to read the French papers. Ie the papers i get over here in English are either the Time or British.

""Yes and the Cold War has been over for OVER 10 years"

Except the fact that those in power were raised with the cold war mentality"

Yes but thier policy doesn't show it - just look at the difference in our Foriegn Policy between then and now - there is a WORLD of difference - we don't act by Cold WAr terms anymore - it does make a big difference that it ended over 10 years ago!

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Say WHAT? If logic truly doesn't solve ANYTHING, then why are you then saying that we need to present logic to them? And you can deal with their emotions ALL YOU WANT, but if you've taken one general psychology course you will know that EMOTIONAL PEOPLE DO NOT RESPOND TO ANYTHING. I highly doubt they are going to care that you are trying to commiserate with them if they are truly emotional. Responding to things out of emotion by its very nature means that the person is probably not reacting LOGICALLY. So what do you do? You wait til they are willing to listen to LOGIC. And don't tell me that's what you've been trying to say all along, because you wouldn't have said "logic doesn't solve anything" if that's what you did mean. You keep changing your mind about what you mean. What I'm saying is that, in order for any of this to be worked out, everyone has to put their emotions to the side and think LOGICALLY. You just keep trying to deal with those emotions...you'll be spinning your wheels in the mud.

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The emotion from the A-Bomb isn't there, the emotion from the cold war isn't there in most people either, it's the mentality. People in power now were raised during the cold war, and some of their policies reflect that.

Logic can solve everything, but both sides have to be logical. An example, women alwasy seem to stick around eve if they get beaten every night. Now, they know that he shoudln't beat them, and that she should leave, but she is stuck with "but i love him and he loves me." Why waste your time with idiots like that, huh? Ignore the bitchers and complainers and only deal with the people who are usefull in the world.

No, this was a different movie, it wasn't voiced over, I wouldn't watch a voiced over movie.

Gladiator was violent? It was worse in Roman times. Geez, Peral Harbor and Saving Private Ryan showed a true depiction of what happened. You would rather see a movie about a horrible event have all the horrible stuff taken out?

I don't want anything in Europe, thanks anyway.

Not like ours in regards to the newspapers. Newpapers in other languages in the US are not from other nations, they are based in the US. That's what happens in a free society.

We don't act like we're in a cold war? SINCE WHEN!? Why does the executive branch feel the need to lie to congress and keep secrets that are of "national security" interests? Why don't they tell us how many people really died on the taliban's side in operation anaconda? Why would that hurt anything? It wouldn't, they just lie about it.

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I didn't say it wouldn't solve ANYTHING - I said it can't solve EVERYTHING - there is a very big difference in those 2 words and the sense that they convey.

Anakin - "The emotions cannot change until the facts are given to them."

I never said they could - but going in and saying - "No you're stupid. What you think is right is wrong and this is how it is will only make it worse. Like I said we need to first SHOW them we can be different calm them a bit and then present the facts in a way that does not conflict with thier values and emotional hotspots - but we have to get to know those aspects of thier lives before we can successfully do so. S deal with THIER emotions and prejudices first then work on changing them.

As for the Movie - I do suggest the one I meantioned - it was very good and showed a real personal look into just how ruthless the Germans were with this - and how trapped others felt by it.

And as for Gladiator - jsut because it was violent in those times doesn't mean I have to like the Movie - I didn't like Saving Private Ryan or Pearl Harbor either for that matter - for the same reasons I just don't like Violent Movies - I prefere thinking movies or romances or just plain Fantasy - even the cheesiest Fantasy holds more appeal for me than a movie that capitalizes on violence - it's just a personal preference.

As for the newspapers - why does a nation HAVE to publish newspapers in different languages to be free?? just because we have enough of a population of different language speakers we do - but the companies would go bankrupt trying that in other nations - it makes MORE SENSE to just import them especially in languages like Russian or Dutch which few people speak. I'd like to know how many US newspapers you've seen in Russian?

"We don't act like we're in a cold war? SINCE WHEN!? Why does the executive branch feel the need to lie to congress and keep secrets that are of "national security" interests? Why don't they tell us how many people really died on the taliban's side in operation anaconda? Why would that hurt anything? It wouldn't, they just lie about it."

Well Of course they are going to keep secrets - we ARE in a REAL WAR - not jsut a cold war but WAR it was declared - OPENLY by both Bush and Congress - that was even before I left - those aren't COLD WAR policies those are WAR policies - all countries at all times in history do that in War - it's the only SMART way to run your war - there could be spies, traitors or just disagreers anywhere that could give out the info if it was just so freely given - we did the same way back in the War of 1812 - do you REALLY think Madison told his Congress EVERYTHING that went on during that war before it was well over?? if you do you have a few things to learn about War tactic and just plain Common Sense in a War situation! We are at War as we type like it or not - if the Executive started telling us everything that was going on right now I would TOTALLY lose faith in them and our nation as that would be rthe STUPIDEST thing they could do right now!

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