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Now, this is an example of not knowing the facts, and can be applied to both the terrorists and the euro trash. Ever heard the phrase, "We the People...?" That means the government of the United States is THE PEOPLE of the United States. If they want to attack the government, they should at least have the brains to attack the ones who did what they don't like, which IS NOT George W Bush, and especially not the civilians in the WTC.

Why I wanted you all over there to see that show is because it shows you that the attack was an attack on civilians. However much you or your friends may think the US Government needs to be bit in the ass, 9/11 was nothing like that bite. Well, in a way it is, because it was an attack on the People, the People also make up our governement. So, instead of attacking just the civilians, or just the government, when you do what they did on 9/11, you attack every single citizen, and non citizens living here who love the country just the same.

I feel bad for the people who die Iraq because of our actions through the UN, but the idea behind it was to get the people in an uproar and cause some sort of revolution. Yea, our country pushed it. But you have to look at Saddam. If he cared about the people of his country, he would let the UN inspectors in to check everything out, and leave it open for them to return whenever they feel the need. I feel bad for the people who die everyday, but it is not our fault. Saddam Husein is at fault. He is causing the hurt of the Iraqi people. There is no doubt about it. He has the power to help them, and he does nothing.

We aren't in the same situation. The terrorists wouldn't stop if we stopped supporting Israel or took our troops out of Saudi Arabia. They then would attack our way of life. Our naked lady magazines, our beer, our food, our sports. They would want every last one of us dead because giving in to the fanatics makes them even more powerful in the muslim world. The President does not have the ability, like Saddam does, to prevent another attack, there is nothing he can do. And currently, the UN and the US are looking at ways to change the sanctions on Iraq to stop targetting the people, and only target the ones in control, since obviously the Iraqi people aren't able to overthrow Saddam.

You're right, the A-Bomb was a completely stupid idea. Blame Truman. He made the final decision, he was apparently unable to predict the Cold War. So, blame Roosevelt for choosing him as his Vice. Who can we blame next for doing something that caused something in the futures, unbeknownest to them. Ignorance is everywhere in the world. Look what Hitler did to the Jews. A Jew would be ignorant to think just because the German government of the 1940s did it, that the government of today would too.

You cannot blame me, or any other American for something like Hiroshima. I didn't decide to do that, so how can anyone bring that up and say "Look what we did to the Japanese!" I didn't do shit to them.

Yes, you're right, going after the people is an effective way to go after the government. But I feel, in contradiction to many in the past, it is not the way to do things. All I am asking is that your friends realize that there is NO difference between the people and the government. The people make up the government. In a true Republic, you can't attack one without attacking the others. I want them to admit that it was an attack on the American People, some of which make up the government. SOME.

Do your friends really think the attack on the WTC was worth it? Is it really going to change our policy? No, it's not. It only made us strike back harder than ever before. It's called logic. Your friends are in college, they should know what that means. Of course in Europe, especially in France, logic isn't something you see a lot. Yea, yea, yea, they aren't all euros, but living in France can infect your brain. It's just like if I watch a movie with only british accents, I come out talkling like a brit.

None of them live in a restricted society where they can't learn facts. The facts are there for everyone to see, you have to use logic to understand them. Apparently they don't search for the facts, but rather jump on the Anti-American bandwagon and dish oput the same BS as all the rest of them.

GS and I have been able to shoot down a lot of what you've said are the reasons they feel the way they do, how can we do that if they're right? Sure, you have made rebuttles to what we say, but we always shoot it down again.

*gets off the soap box*

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So how the HELL is WTC like Hiroshima? There was no war. No military was involved. THIS WAS THE ACTION OF A BUNCH OF FREAKING MADMEN.

I'm really sick of seeing people trying to "justify" WTC, to make it allright. IT WASN'T. Call it a random act of violence that affected thousands.

But don't sit there and listen to people justify the thing. It's one thing to step into another person's shoes and another to let them brainwash you.

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And what do our dear terrorists (who aren't EVEN military) do? They go and blast out the biggest bunch of buildings in the country and kill just as many of us as they possibly can.

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Mara - no one told me it was an affective way - but anyone can see that it did work - just look at the gov right after - I didn't say it was right or just but you have to admit that if that was the aim it most assuredly worked - that is my own divination from what I saw. I'm a New Yorker you will never convince me it had to happen - I had family in those building - France 3 showed some of the footage from the night before last night and I saw a second cousin - recognized him even - the one pulling the fireproof pants on as he got out of the fire truck before going in - he never came out - I know that - we know who made it out and who didn't he was one of the 5 in the family that didn't but even I have to admit that it certainly got the government's attention! As for Hiroshima they were just as innocent war or not - remember they had NO say in thier government - we do - they were part of an Empire at the time - the people had no choice but to follow thier Emperor no matter what he did, and they were the ones WE attacked - yes we picked smaller cities out of Compassion for the people who had no say - but we could have just as easily tried to get to the Emperor himself with a regular bomb or what not and NOT attack the innocents underneath his ABSOLUTE MONARCHY! And others have considered this a war - a war that we didn't know we were a part of - the first part of that war - but others have considered that we were at war with the world - economically or however long before. People justify things like this even in thier own country cause it makes it EASIER - We've been trying to find a justification for a long time - it's not easy knowing you lost 5 cousins in a matter of seconds really - it doesn't help even knowing they died heros or that you didn't really know them! It doesn't help knowing how closely and miraculously the people closer to you escape - I shouldn't have any family left right now - not on my dad's side it is a sheer act of God that I still have my aunt, Uncle and 2 first cousins, and even my cousin-in-law and the fiancé of my other first cousin. But what does make it easier? Finding some sort of justification no matter how off or wrong sounding it is - finding some REASON why they died - it helps ever so slightly even when seeing thier last moments playing out for the world on National TV in a nation that isn't even your own. No matter how others reacted last night - the family I am living with kept talking as if it didn't matter at all - it's not easy to watch a cousin you remember dancing with pull on his uniform then walk into a building that minutes latter you know is going to fall on him - when you know that those last words you hear on that tape were probably his last ever. It's never easy but it helps to think that there may somewhere out there be a REASON for it all a REASON it had to happen that way. Hopefully better world understanding will result but until then what can I say that they died for? It may not be the best reason in the world but the reason I found works it fills that little bit that needs dealing with. That's all that really matters for us right now - until we can put an end to this all and find the good that may come out of it - THAT'S ALL THAT THERE IS TO MATTER.

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And EXCUSE ME, but how do you think we CAN get the civilians in to help without the military going in first? Unless they just want us to sit back and twiddle our collective thumbs while they all fight their own particular battles, kill each other off, and let us help clean up afterward. WHICH WE DO. AND HAVE DONE. BUT there are times when we are ASKED to come in with the military and assist in eradicating those forces who would hold others under their thumbs.

HOW DARE THEY SAY THE GOVERNMENT OF A COUNTRY THAT STANDS FOR FREEDOM AND PERSONAL IMPROVEMENT AND LIFE AND LIBERTY... HOW DARE THEY SAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF A COUNTRY WHO HAS OPENED ITS BORDERS AND ITS ARMS TO IMMIGRANTS COMING FROM THE VERY COUNTRIES WHO ARE BITCHING AND MOANING!!!... HOW DARE THEY SAY THAT OUR GOVERNMENT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM DESERVED THE SLAUGHTER OF THOUSANDS OF IT INNOCENT CITIZENS, all at the hands of a raging, moronic imbecile with a warped sense of morality and COMPLETE IGNORANCE AS TO WHAT THE TERM "RELIGIOUS" MEANS.

Please tell these people that the enemy they are obviously fighting against, or railing against, is WAR and human GREED and IGNORANCE. NOT US. WE ARE NOT THE ENEMY HERE.

You can tell these people that, quite frankly, I for one am being tired of being seen as the world’s scapegoat or “bad guy.” No matter what we do, someone will complain. No one appears to realize that with all fighting going on in the Mideast, we have NOT actively gone in. We are sitting back. WHERE DO THEY THINK THAT WE MIGHT INVADE THEM? HOW DO THEY DRAW THIS CONCLUSION? WHAT IS THE LOGICAL FOUNDATION FOR THAT SILLY FEAR?

These are issues that need to be addressed first. Otherwise no matter what I say, no matter what I try to present in explanation and “defense,” it will be ignored beneath the blinding blanket their own SUBJECTIVE and quite unfounded FEARS… and not truth. Fears based on jealousy and their OWN mistrust of others. And should that false notion continue due to their persevering and stubborn rejection of facts I have offered over and over in these posts, and those shown by Ani and Mara, then Ani’s parting sentiment goes for me as well.

I hate to sound like my thoughts are jumping, but I keep reading the UTTER IDIOCY IN YOUR POSTS!!! ...and can't help but keep on editing my own reply.

Talks about shallow thinking?!? "Blame America for the A-Bomb!!!" "Blame the government who is its people, so thus the people made the A-Bomb!!!" If ANYONE HAD SAT UP AND TOOK A FEW NOTES IN SCIENCE they would realize that Germany was very nearly the one to get the bomb first... and trust me, Hitler would have used it in an even more horrendous manner. This was the guy who killed MILLIONS OF INNOCENTS... and against whom we sent our military and defeated him, OR HAVE THEY FORGOTTEN THIS?

THE MORONS YOU ASSOCIATE YOURSELF WITH NEED TO DISCERN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT CONSTITUTES AN ATTACK ON A NATION AND WHAT DOESN'T. WE HAVE NEVER... NEVER...! AS A NATION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ATTACKED WITH MALICE AFORETHOUGHT. NEVER. We have retaliated, but only when we were damned sure it was justifiable. If these countries are so anti-American, and hate our government so damned much, then LET THEM HAUL THEIR PEOPLE OUT OF IT. Give up THOSE JOBS THEY HOLD TO AMERICANS. GIVE UP THE SEATS IN OUR EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS TO DESERVING AMERICANS. GET THE HELL OUT.

Am I beginning to wake up anybody over there? Hmmm... seems a touch wee on the hypocritical side that on one hand they scream and holler and moan about "big bad USA," while on the other they come running here whenever they have the chance. There was just an article in our paper today about a family who had immigrated here in 1987 from EASTERN Europe because they were fed up with Communism. We have PLENTY of Bosnians and Armenians and Russians and Ukrainians and Lebanese and Kuwaiti and Jordanians and so on living here, you know.

And all this crap about pride... well, you know what they say about it going before a fall! Misplaced pride is what is at the root of all problems today. "Oh, the poor Muslim, how we have hurt his pride by hitting him with whatever (and utterly false, I might add) evil he perceives us to be hitting him with.!" Again, "boo-hoo-hoo." WHAT ABOUT OUR PRIDE? IT'S A TWO-WAY STREET, SISTER. But time and time again we put aside our pride TO HELP OTHERS.

The obvious fact which remains here is that at the bottom of it all lies the slavering worm of jealousy. Jealous that THEIR country isn't a world power. Jealous that THEY don't have the freedoms which we do. Jealousy that WE COME TIME AND TIME AGAIN TO THE AID OF OTHERS, which makes them feel inferior because they had to depend on us for help. JEALOUS THAT THEIR OWN PEOPLE SEEK SHELTER AND A BETTER LIFE WITHIN OUR BORDERS. PRIDE AND JEALOUSY. THEY ARE THE REAL CULPRITS.

And now, Padme, I close with this. I suggest you sit back and take a good, hard look at what you have been writing... and when you can begin sounding like an AMERICAN again, we will welcome your continued thoughts. But NOT the repeated weak excuses and falsehoods and illogical notions that your associates in your "quasi-school" are apparently spoon-feeding you.

[ 03-12-2002 09:41 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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WHY ON EARTH DID THEY GO AFTER INNOCENT CIVILIANS INSTEAD OF OUR GOVERNMENTAL OFFICIALS?

I *know* why these guys went after the civilians. Dude, they want every single American dead because ALLAH supposedly told them to do so.

Why did we go after civilians? YOU try finding the Japanese self-proclaimed Emperor. And as said above, it was an act of retaliation. You talk about history, DID YOU FORGET ABOUT PEARL HARBOR OR SOMETHING? Granted, at least they went after a military base, but that was in our days of laize-faire. We didn't mess with anyone else in the world. SO DON'T GO THERE.

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Iraq is a big piss bucket. Saddam's special police kill anyone who speaks out publicly against the regime or anyone he doesn't like. Now, why would the people speak out against him when they would be killed? They wouldn't, it's better to support him verbally and condemn the US as he does, so they can live, than to condemn him and die. Once again, all it takes is a little logic.

I only called the idiots who have no common sense, no logic, and big ass egos euro trash. Those are people who think they know all, but never look for the truth.

You have accepted the blame or Hiroshima, well howdy doody! Let's ship you to Japan so they can kill you for something you didn't do. Raise your hand if you agree!!! *raises hand*
STOP AND THINK FOR ONE FING MOMENT. You were not alive when Hiroshima was bombed. You didn't not say "drop it." You had NO HAND in bombing them. STOP CLAIMINg RESPONSIBIlITY. When you do that they expect us all to do that, and then they blame us, the ones who didn't do it. Apparently you claim responsibility for all the Indians dying. Hell, if ya wanna go back even more, why not claim repsonsibility for the extinction of the Neaderthals? It's ok to say "I'm sorry it happened." But it is not ok to say, "I'm sorry I and my people did this to you," which it what it sounds like you're saying.

I can say I'm sorry to say that it was Americans who dropped that bomb. That doesn't deny the past a bit. May I just say, I NEVER voted for Truman. I am in no way responsible for his actions in dropping the bomb. Stop blaming people who weren't alive at the time. I don't blmae the British or the French for the War of 1812. No one alive now was alive then. Stop being stupid.

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*SIGHS*

In that case, this whole line of thought is a moot one and nothing will ever be resolved, will it? IT TAKES TWO. TWO. The streetcar goes in BOTH DIRECTIONS. The only thing that will stop the hatred of some is our death as a nation. The only thing in the case of others is... I don't know, as so far there hasn't been anything logical to respond to and attempt to resolve. But these people have GOT to get off the "me, me, ME!" line of thinking, root out the facts, and do THEIR part to reach out and work with us as well. Lord knows we've been giving them the chance to do so myriad times throughout our history.

One final thought, Padme. While I am sorry for the grief over the loss of your cousins in WTC, and can fully understand the driving NEED to find a REASON for such a loss - everyone always needs a reason when someone dies! - I just cannot agree that the reason here was either justified or good or anything else.

If anything it should be uniting you with our line of thought, and not against it, which you appear to be doing. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY IN HELL we can come CLOSE to comparing WTC disaster with Hiroshima... BUT we can to what preceded that event: PEARL HARBOR. We used the bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima to END a war. The Al-Quaeda and Taliban IDIOTS used the WTC attack to START ONE. Don't even try to tell me it's reasonable at all, in any manner. It was the intentional act of a coward and a bully.

[ 03-13-2002 07:33 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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When I said sent Civilian helpp in first I meant before it got so bad that the military was needed - we tend to ingore people until it gets to that level and that doesn't help anyone at all... Be back in a minute must change computers....

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AGAIN PEOPLE, STOP AND LOOK AT THE REAL CULPRIT YOU ARE RAILING AGAINST.

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GS - yes Isreal does have a big army - but they have been at war and openly threatened for years - of Course they would have a big army it would be stupid for them not to in thier position!!!! They need to use it just about everyday to protect THIER people - I don't see ours working so well as a detterent - people just laugh that we have it but are afraid to use it unless our victory is a sure thing!
With the A-bomb - Hitler was close - but we didn't use it on him - we used it on Japan who hadn't even thought about starting to work on one - or if they had thought about it they didn't do anything about it - Noone would be complaining so loudly - or bringing it up so much if we had used it against him - a fact which they openly admit - even if it would have meant the destruction of thier own countries in the process - as long as he was stopped!
The people I spend time with over here are NOT Morons they have a different perspective on the world then we do - and our culture definitely comes out as trying to dominate - I have no problem finding an American movie over here - when was the last time you've seen a Russian Film in the states - or music for that matter - we do have an overbearing dominating style about us Micky D's is everywhere - I bet you've never even heard about Hippopatamus! We have been brainwashed from Kindergarten to think our nation is the best in the World - American Kids are really brainwashed - we don't teach about other nations or other cultures until Jr high - these kids over here (French Kids not those from the dictatorial nations like the other adults in my classes) can already tell you all about the cultures of not only European nations but the US (our history, and pop culture), and South America, and Asia by thier equivalent of 2nd grade! You talk about American pride - American pride is overblown and Egotistical - we as a nation have way to much for our own good - that is why we are hated - we pushed our culture on everyone and everything not like it is seen as bad - what happened to being a melting pot? We certainly aren't acting it anymore! The people here aren't spoon feeding me anything - I came here not to escape a terrible life like many of them but to expand my knowledge of world customs and ideas - to break out of the Brainwashing Americna schools love to give thier students - you will not find any other nations that have thier kids pledge thier Alleigence everyday, or if you do they are rare, very rare! I don't want to think like an American - I left to get out of that rut - A year abroad does do wonders for you - it does open you up - there is much more good stuff out there than just the USA! I think one of my British Friends here said it best when he was asked the first day of class what his nationality was he said that his passport was British, that he grew up in England, but now lives in France? but that he was niether French nor British but simply a Citizen of the World. He's not hte only one I've ever heard say that - and ya know what - both people that I've heard something like that from are 2 of the smartest people I have ever met - we are ALL Citizens of the World - that is what is importatn - not American or Birtish or Iraqi or Isreali or any other puny nation - governments don't last forever - countries don't last forever - we can only hope that Humankind and our beautiful Planet Earth will last together until our Sun blows up and the Solar system must start afresh - that is the ONLY importance at the end of the day!
I also never said that the reason I found for WTC was a GOOD reason - but it was a reason that can't be denied - it accomplished that task very well and while it wasn't good or justified it was a reason and it did work - you can not say it didn't - otherwise why are our BOYS over there fighting and risking thier lives?

Mara - they did go after our Government too - you can't forget the Pentagon or ignore that the other Plane might have and from what they have figured out probably WAS heading for a government building before the passengers brought her down - but also notice how little publicity the Pentagon has gotten in comparison - I think they knew it would. And No I didn't forget Pearl Harbor - but we did have other ways - and Pearl Harbor did get us off our Butts and into Hitler's Face so in the end some good was achieved through that war - but it wasn't from Hiroshima and Nagasaki!

Anakin - I didn't say you had to like the French - just recognize that the people of whom I speak are NOT French, Something which you haven't done until just now. And yes I could have and did learn "Where's the Bathroom?" in French in HS but we're put in these classes cause they are the only ones open to us over here and it does help to spend weeks on end conjugating verbs in tenses that don't even exist in the English language - the grammar is really important and we do learn it better this way - however I am NOT a normal student here as I have said - many are refugees or other people who left thier nation for a better life and you don't just say "hmmm maybe when I'm older I'm going to have to flee to France so lets learn French now." Nor in that kind of a situation do you wait until you have learned the language to go - you just go and the school I'm at is aimed to help these types of people deal with life and fit into life in France better.
These people ALL HAVE common sense, logic and they DON'T have Huge egos, they don't have a way to look for the truth as without understanding a language you can't really understand news in that language and you can bet thier nations would never have LET them find it in thier own language before - they want to learn and they listen but it is hard to break the propaganda they have lived thier whole lives up until this point in. CALLING them Euro Trash is the Big Know It All Egotistical Attitude you SAY you hate in others.
As for my apologizing to my Japanese friends - ever heard of apoligizing even when you didn't really have a hand in something? Yeah people do with friends when there is a tension that just won't go away. The tension in between the two countries is still there - but a simple I'm sorry does wonders in between individuals - we are a part of this nation past, present, and future whether we like it or not and all of the Past is seen as connected with us all equally, as an inheritance we were born with - our children will have to fix our mistakes we can at least try to mend our make up for the mistakes of our parents and grandparents so that htey won't be stuck with those too! It is not being stupid it is admitting the past of your nation and it's affect on others - it's showing that you have learned from the mistakes of those before you and that you won't make them again - it is being Bigger than you have to be - the EASY way out is saying well I didn't have a part in it personally so I'm not going to deal with it, a stronger person can and will say - well I understand the mistakes my ancestors have made and I am sorry they did so I will never make them myself - I have learned from them and will try to make the future better because of that.
That is what I did and what many Americans have been able to do - we say it in the Civil rights movement with Euro-Americans apologizing to African Americans for thier treatment during the years of slavery - no one was alive then from that time but it didn't matter to them - we can do the same thing - we just have to ditch the exagerated American ego to do so! (BTW the French were not at all involved in the War of 1812 - that was solely between us and the British - perhaps it is the French and Indian War that you mean?)

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It’s what WE STAND FOR that will in the long run bring about the globalization your friends are seeking: personal freedom, freedom of speech, justice and liberty for all. THAT is what America is all about, and when eyes finally uncloud from jealousy (you said it yourself: “we as a nation have way too much for our own good and that is why we are hated…” SHEESH THAT IS A STUPID THING TO SAY! Yeah, we have a lot… BUT GAINED THROUGH AMERICAN TOIL AND WORK ETHIC AND INGENUITY AND TECHNOLOGY! May I point to Japan in regard to this? There they are, quietly Westernizing, quietly growing, and no one is hollering at them. BECAUSE THEY AREN’T AS BIG, AND AREN’T ASKED FOR HELP FROM OTHER NATIONS AS WE ARE.)—but I digress: when eyes can uncloud from the jealousies which are running rampant, they will sit up and notice that it will only be through a true democracy/republic that the entire world will eventually unite as one nation. That is what a “republic” is, which is what we ARE.

[ 03-15-2002 10:39 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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We were emplacing a MILITARY ACTION. We so far have managed to eradicate many second- and third-tier leaders in the Al-Quaeda, and are paving the way for the safety of the returning President of Afghanistan, as well as the setting up of their own government and assistance in rebuilding the ravages over twenty years of war have wrought.

[ 03-15-2002 11:45 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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Do what? I must ave missed something. Here's a way to show you the first testament isn't always right, "an eye for an eye" Is it working in Israel? Are they getting information about others from the dead palestinian shooters they kill? No. They never spot and think that if you cathc the bastard alive, you can interrogate him. Neither Israel or Palestine are doing enough to work towards peace.

Our movies are everywhere, McDonalds is everywhere....it's called capitalism, ever heard of it? The reason we don't watch Russian films is because we have a certain taste. Not many of us like subtitles, and frankly, foreign movies don't have the quality ours do.

Ever person is America has the ability to learn about the cultures of other nations, if they want. There's a difference between French schools and American schools. In America, kids aren't raised to be snobs, and not in search of the facts, like the french.

"we pushed our culture on everyone and everything not like it is seen as bad"

When? When did the American government force other nations to have McDonalds?

"- I came here not to escape a terrible life like many of them but to expand my knowledge of world customs and ideas"

You were taught in America. It was that "brainwashing" of American schools that made you want to learn about other nations. Stop being stupid. You didn't have to run from your country, be proud.

I say the pledge every day, when I do it I pledge my life to the Republic and the ideals of the American Revolution and the Enlightenment. It does not say, "defend America or die, fag"

Ever heard of nationalism? I've got it, forgive me, and ask your british friend to forgive me. The reason I love this country so much is because of what I said before. After those ideals, people are in charge. PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES, especially during the cold war, much of which you point to saying we're unfair. In hindsight, yea, it wasn't right, but at the time that we do things to help people, it's not a stupid idea, it's the only available option. You're stupid and so are your friends if they think we Americans sit in our living rooms plotting to take over the world and kill the idea of human rights.

"I also never said that the reason I found for WTC was a GOOD reason - but it was a reason that can't be denied - it accomplished that task very well and while it wasn't good or justified it was a reason and it did work - you can not say it didn't - otherwise why are our BOYS over there fighting and risking thier lives?"

It did not accomplish the task binny and his bussies were hoping for. They though we were soft. We sucked it up over and over after attacks. They though we wouldn't act this time (they didn't believe the buildings would fall), but they were wrong, and not he's pissing in a hole in the ground and wiping his butt with rocks.

"Anakin - I didn't say you had to like the French - just recognize that the people of whom I speak are NOT French, Something which you haven't done until just now."

Oh shut up. I've realized it over and over, that's why i clarified the term "euro trash."

Please, ask your buddies in your French class to visit America. They'd be amazed at how nice we really are.

"CALLING them Euro Trash is the Big Know It All Egotistical Attitude you SAY you hate in others. "

Not really,if you read my earlier post, you'd know euro trash is all people who don't dearch for the truth when they have the ability.

People don't say, "I'm sorry I ran over your friend" when you didn't. They say, "I'm sorry your friend died." You say the first one. You say "I'm sorry I killed your people with the a-bomb."

Maybe I'll finish reading yourpost, mnaybe not. I can only take so much brainwashed BS in one night. Also, I'm trying to be as nice as possible to you, but please, leave France, you're forgetting how to use these two things: , .

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Guess that's why your classmates are lacking in logic and the ability to think for themselves.

But further regarding immigration...

We have to think in terms of the space we have and the jobs we have. We can only be the land of the free when everyone has job opportunities to support themselves. We already have a large number of jobless and homeless people. Who wants to add to that count? All idiots in favor, raise your hand.

And contrary to your belief, America is NOT the hardest place to get into. Canada is even more difficult. Remember we also have to make it more difficult because we DO offer so much to our citizens. We CAN'T be lax and just let everybody in, or else those priveleges will be diminished. Even lost.

"...yes Isreal does have a big army - but they have been at war and openly threatened for years - of Course they would have a big army it would be stupid for them not to in thier position!!!! They need to use it just about everyday to protect THIER people - I don't see ours working so well as a detterent - people just laugh that we have it but are afraid to use it unless our victory is a sure thing!"

And WHY do you think that Israel needs a big army and we don't after the events of 9/11? HELLO, we were attacked by terrorists because they don't agree with the freedoms our government provides us. Because Allah told them to kill us (yeah, right). The second we trim down those forces, the second every other one of these whining nations who are jealous of our freedoms will come stomping in. Laize Faire tactics don't work Padme. Those type of tactics were the ones we had before WWII. We still got attacked even then.

READ YOUR HISTORY BOOK.

We have a big army. We are the wealthiest nation in the world. We protect others. We support Israel, which some HATE. We have a responsibility to protect those who cry out for help. Last time I checked, when you are given a big gift the best thing you can do is put it to good use.

"...When I said sent Civilian helpp in first I meant before it got so bad that the military was needed - we tend to ingore people until it gets to that level and that doesn't help anyone at all..."

You talk about the fact that the other countries hate us and don't want us in their affairs. In the same breath you THEN say that we don't pay them any attention til it's bad enough to warrant military action. HELLO, IF WE STAY OUT OF THEIR BUSINESS THEN HOW CAN WE KNOW IF THEY NEED HELP???? And first of all, we don't just go barging in to help countries. They have to ask us. If you are all hot and bothered about us shoving our lifestyle on other countries, then WHY do you think we should go parading in offering our help if we haven't been asked? Wouldn't that be shoving ourselves onto them?

And WHY would we send our military out to die if victory wasn't possible? This is stupid. You don't parade in somewhere just because you have an army. Army is filled with PEOPLE, LIVES. No use to foolishly squander them.

"American Kids are really brainwashed - we don't teach about other nations or other cultures until Jr high - these kids over here (French Kids not those from the dictatorial nations like the other adults in my classes) can already tell you all about the cultures of not only European nations but the US (our history, and pop culture), and South America, and Asia by thier equivalent of 2nd grade! You talk about American pride - American pride is overblown and Egotistical - we as a nation have way to much for our own good - that is why we are hated - we pushed our culture on everyone and everything not like it is seen as bad..."

Oh Bull shit. I work in school systems, they talk about TONS OF DIFFERENT CULTURES. WE INCORPORATE OTHER CULTURES INTO OUR DAMN MUSIC THERAPY GOALS AND SESSIONS. I've worked in Prekindergarten schools that had SPANISH TEACHERS. And judging what your pals seem to THINK they know about Americans, I don't think you should be arguing that the knowledge they DO receive is all that great. It's a bunch of hogwash. And if they don't want our damn McDonald's and such, THEY DON'T HAVE TO EAT THERE NOW, DO THEY?

And the REASON cultural stuff is often more emphasized in highschool is because talking about cultures requires a higher cognitive awareness for students to FULLY APPRECIATE the cultural diversity. You are a teacher in training, I would HOPE you have heard of concrete-operational and higher level thought. You don't get past concrete operational until around middle school. And that's when your abstract thinking begins to truly kick in, and you truly understand cultures for what they truly are.

And again, there is plenty of culturally diverse stuff in younger grades.

And your reason for WTC can be denied because it's a load of crap and isn't logical. Any person that truly believes that is just sick.

And I'm just not talking about Hiroshima anymore. You seem to think that what happened at WTC can be sickly justified, but that this can't be. Hiroshima was a RETALITORY MILITARY ACT (I've said this before!!!!!). WTC WAS THE ACT OF A MORON, NOT A STATE, NOT A NATION. A FANATICAL IDIOT. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

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BUT NO. Instead of logic and nonviolence, a madman, reacting in jealous rage, chooses to strike out of the shadows like a coward. Chooses to kill as many innocent Americans as he can in what can't EVEN be considered a pre-emptive strike. There is NO other reason that would come anywhere close to "justifying" this -- and I really hesitate to use the "j" word here. It was an act of war, and a childish one at that, meant to be as hurtful as possible.

[ 03-16-2002 10:47 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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You can COMMISERATE with your Japanese friend. You can say "I'm sorry that this happened." But, as none of us were alive then and didn't vote those guys into office, it doesn't make a bit of sense to apologize for actually DROPPING THE A-BOMB. You didn't do it. Don't claim the "responsibility." You don't have to like that we dropped the a-bomb. You don't have to agree with it. You can empathize with your friend. But if s/he expects every American to APOLOGIZE for that, then I guess s/he needs to start apologizing for Pearl Harbor.

And OH YES. Since WTC was such an "effective" way to get America's attention, WHAT IS WRONG WITH ALL THE OTHER COUNTRIES WHO HAD PEOPLE IN THOSE BUILDINGS? It's a good bet there were some French people there, as well as many other nationalities. DID THEY DESERVE THAT? If you ask Bin-Laylow, he'd tell you yes because they don't see anything wrong with the American society and take part in it.

And the attack was NOT effective for what these clowns wanted. They are TERRORISTS, they wanted us to crawl into a little hole and FEAR them and let them run amok in the world. WOULD YOU LIKE FOR US TO DO THAT? TO TAKE OUR MILITARY AND CRAWL INTO A HOLE AND LET THE TERRORISTS ATTACK ALL THESE OTHER WHININING COUNTRIES?

I don't think so.

[ 03-16-2002 10:57 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Mara1Jade ]

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*crosses arms, taps foot, waiting....*

[ 03-16-2002 11:17 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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"EXCUSE ME AGAIN but how long have you been out of school? We haven’t “forced” the Pledge of Allegiance in our schools since I don’t know when. This is left up to individual states to decide, I believe, or maybe the schools. It’s not a federal law or anything."

I've been out of Public school for 4 years now - and yes even in HS we were forced to stand and say it every morning - you have no idea how pointless we all thought it was but we did it anyway - by the end it was just so routine that no one paid any attention but I have had kids at work come up to me very upset that the internationals didn't do so - granted they were young but they really believed everyone in the world did that everyday - to OUR nation!
"And what’s wrong with pledging our love to this country? It IS our country? Don’ t the French go around saying “Vive la France!” "
there is nothing wrong with it when it is a personal choice - schools shouldn't however make thier students do so everyday - they should be given a choice. And No the French don't - only when attacked or when winning the World Cup - and then it's more for the team then the nation, they don't actually learn any nationalistic bits here...
"I am extremely saddened and disturbed by your statement about our country brainwashing its young people. Where on earth do you get this idea? For the past ten years AT LEAST that I know of, the biggest push in American schools is STRESSING DIVERSITY. Learning to RESPECT the diverse cultures of which we are made… "
You said it right there of which we were made - not how the people in other nations live now or any of that just those that make up our own nation as if it were the most important of all.
"(you said it yourself: “we as a nation have way too much for our own good and that is why we are hated…” SHEESH THAT IS A STUPID THING TO SAY! Yeah, we have a lot… " in that I was talking about pride and pride alone - hte egocentric pride I've seen way to much in other Americans that makes it harder for them to reach out and get to know others and other cultures NOT a part of our nation the way we all should.
As with the Citizen of the World thing - I mentioned what he said exactly - however he was only dealing with his passport and current residence - since he has also lived in South America the US Africa and parts of southern Asia - I'd say he has a pretty good claim on it. However I meantioned this to point out the fact that I would rather consider myself a citizen of the World than just an American.
As for the WTC - I already said that I didn't think it was a GOOD way - but that it WAS an EFFECTIVE way - it did just that - I don't agree that they should have done it but it worked the gov responded you can't deny that they did!
As for the Babies in China thing - ummm killing them like that is completely illegal in China - people do do it but if they are caught they can and are charged with murder - and that carries the death penalty - the problem is they have a hard time catching people who do so.

Ok I'll get back for the rest - I have class...

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I know that I am now being subjective in using this as a rebuttal, but in that experience I discovered what is out there to be taught, and I can't believe I'm the only one IN OUR ENTIRE COUNTRY who would go this far, SHEESH. THAT'S why we have EDUCATIONAL STANDARDS WE ADHERE TO, in ALL SUBJECTS so our students will be taught FACT and TRUTH in as OBJECTIVE a manner as possible.

[ 03-18-2002 11:15 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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We learned from history. And we're doing our damnedest to share that lesson learned.

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It's a state thing, I seriously doubt that they forced you to do it. I think you're lying to try to make a point because you're losing this debate horribly. In my school, there is a moment of silence for people to pray or do whatever they want, then here is the pledge, or you don't want to say it, stand up and shut up. Then we have the anthem, and we say standing for that.

I may be young, but I'm not too young to know that in the past four years people were not facists in love with their country, beating thier kids for not saying the pledge. While my principals are facists, they don't force us to do that. If anything, the pressure to say it would be more now (during a war) than in the past four years.

"As for the WTC - I already said that I didn't think it was a GOOD way - but that it WAS an EFFECTIVE way "

No it wasn't. If their objective was to catch the attention of our government, then it was an effective way. But their objective was god knows what, but it sure wasn't to get Afghanistan in the middle of a war and to lose their (binny's) home. It was effective in catching the eye of the US Government, it wasn't effective in whatever binny had planned.

"As for the Babies in China thing - ummm killing them like that is completely illegal in China - people do do it but if they are caught they can and are charged with murder "

Don't make me laugh! It's the Chinese government who limits the people to one child, what else can you expect but for the people to want a son so they're family doesn't end with them. The Chinese government is awfully funny when they make illegal something they cause. Another thing while we talk about China, not only are they baby killers, but they have death camps that the entire world ignores. YES, just like NAZI GERMANY, DEATH CAMPS. I don't really know who that was directed to, I can't remember who or why a person brouht up china.

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That's where the China thing came from, Ani. I was bringing it up as an example for possible sanction... still don't know if we do, but from what I read between the lines in your latest post maybe not, ey?

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