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Anakin



Retired

Member # 8

posted 09-06-2002 03:00 PM     Profile for Anakin   Author's Homepage   Email Anakin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have a couple of questions, hopefully this will bloom into a discussion.

War with Iraq is iminent. Dennis Hastert (Speaker of the Hous for those who don't know of him) has said the Congress will vote on whether or not to allow military action against Iraq before the elections are held, on November 5.

For a while now I had decided that I do not support going to war with Iraq, unless evidence is shown that he is doing what they say he is doing. I haven't seen a shred of proof that there are any chemical or biological weapons in Iraq, though I do think they're there. I also haven't seen any shred of evidence that Saddam and his cronies are working on nuclear weapons. Now, they say he is, and that he is dangerously close. In an era where many Americans distrust the government (ignore post-9/11 feelings), it seems awfully arrogant to start a war with Iraq, without showing us proof. That's just how I feel. They very well may show us evidence before the attack begins, and if they do, I will support it.

I really don't have a choice but to support anyway, since I know it will happen. The pros of this war certainly outweigh the cons, even if they aren't working on nukes. Life for Iraqi citizens will be better with Saddam gone.

Oh well. What do you think?

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Posts: 1663 | From: Louisville, Ky/Chicago, IL | Registered: Apr 2000  |  Logged: 12.220.189.75
Loban



Padawan

Member # 253

posted 09-06-2002 03:55 PM     Profile for Loban   Author's Homepage   Email Loban     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, this would seem like the next logical step in the War on Terrorism...

That is my first opinion of the war which awaits in Iraq, I shall save my others for later... once everyone else has a chance to voice there opinions...


Posts: 1163 | From: Ardmore, OK | Registered: Jun 2002  |  Logged: 65.80.161.254
BobPalpatine



Foo Fighter

Member # 17

posted 09-06-2002 04:03 PM     Profile for BobPalpatine   Author's Homepage   Email BobPalpatine     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I beleive war with Iraq is imminent. For years we have been scoping out Sadaam and his habits so that we can get rid of him and finish with Iraq.

We might as well be at war with them already. We have spies over there doing intelligence work all the time. We do know he has biological weapons and things like that, but do you really want the goverment showing that we know this stuff with photographical proof? C'mon get real, as if the media doesn't know enough already. All our enimies have to do now a days is look at our news and they have all the intelligence on us they need. Do they need know what we know? I think there are certain times the goverment should keep certain things to themselves.

Now, while I think this war is gonna happen with Iraq, whethere I like it or not. I'm not too sure about it yet. I mean I don't like Iraq and Sadaam, but we don't have anyone else backing us on this. That is our main problem with this situation.

And that is all.

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"Can't you hear my motored heart? Your the one that started it!"

-Foo Fighters "Generator"

Cogito ergo sum

BobPalpatine
Holonet Admin


Posts: 681 | From: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: Jun 2000  |  Logged: 204.184.55.175
Taehun



Dark Jedi

Member # 290

posted 09-06-2002 04:46 PM     Profile for Taehun   Author's Homepage   Email Taehun     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Indeed, Bob has a good point.

I remember that nobody was supposed to know about Marines landing in Somalia's beaches around 10 years back, but they were greeted on the shores by an American TV crew. This just puts lives in danger, when operational security is breached by media outlets.

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All in all it was just another brick in the wall,
all in all you were just another brick in the wall.


Posts: 248 | From: USAFA, CO | Registered: Jul 2002  |  Logged: 198.81.26.170
Anakin



Retired

Member # 8

posted 09-06-2002 09:33 PM     Profile for Anakin   Author's Homepage   Email Anakin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, Blake, if they have chemical weapons, they more than likely have them spread out all over, so it's not all at one spot. All they need to do is show one photo from one spot. It's not hard. If you become so leniant as to allow the government to do what it wants because it "says" it has evidence of something, you put yourself in the position to be lied to in the future. We can't do that.

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Posts: 1663 | From: Louisville, Ky/Chicago, IL | Registered: Apr 2000  |  Logged: 12.220.189.75
BobPalpatine



Foo Fighter

Member # 17

posted 09-07-2002 01:56 AM     Profile for BobPalpatine   Author's Homepage   Email BobPalpatine     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I just think there is some things the public doesn't need to see.

Personally I take everything with a grain of salt, but I have no doubt in my mind that Iraq has chemical weapons. I don't beleive everything the gov't says, but I think there is somethings the gov't should lie about to protect the people.

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"Can't you hear my motored heart? Your the one that started it!"

-Foo Fighters "Generator"

Cogito ergo sum

BobPalpatine
Holonet Admin


Posts: 681 | From: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: Jun 2000  |  Logged: 204.184.55.87
Graysith



Chosen Daughter

Member # 27

posted 09-07-2002 10:07 AM     Profile for Graysith   Author's Homepage   Email Graysith     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
OK, maybe my thinking is warped, but let's look at it straight from the viewpoint of what weapons Iraq may (or may not) have:

So they've built nukes. So they've developed biological and chemical warfare agents. So what. So have we.

Does this give us the right to declare war on them? Bob, I thought you of all people would be adhering to the principal of, "Let he who is without sin...."

Now, on the other hand, there is evidence supporting the probability that they have terrorist training camps in operation. We have declared war on terrorism. I say that in line with this, we declare war on that terrorist training camp (if it indeed does truly exist). We demand that Saddam destroys it... although then who's to say it/they won't just be moved elsewhere.

In the long and short of it, I think we would be prudent to keep our noses out of Iraq altogether, unless we can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saddam was involved with the WTC tragedy. If that turns out to be true, then I say go after him and the camel he rode in on. But in the meantime we have no right interfering just because we think his governmental policies are bad, or because he may be developing weapons of mass destruction.

[ 09-07-2002 10:08 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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I ride the Stormcloud and the Night!


Posts: 3904 | From: Indianola, Iowa | Registered: Jul 2000  |  Logged: 152.163.188.199
Anakin



Retired

Member # 8

posted 09-07-2002 11:34 AM     Profile for Anakin   Author's Homepage   Email Anakin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, another way that some who used to have power are looking at it is this. There was no treaty ending the Gulf War, only a cease fire agreement. Saddam violated the agreement in 1998 when he threw out weapons inspectors. Since the cease fire agreement is no longer valid, it's wartime already, and President Bush needs no approval to go in and continue the Gulf War. Makes sense, but I don't think that's the way Bush will do it.

There is a lot of evidence that ties Iraq with Al Qaeda. The President declared war on terrorists, and those who harbor them.

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Posts: 1663 | From: Louisville, Ky/Chicago, IL | Registered: Apr 2000  |  Logged: 12.220.189.75
Loban



Padawan

Member # 253

posted 09-07-2002 12:19 PM     Profile for Loban   Author's Homepage   Email Loban     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As soon as we started the War on Terrorism, there was no heading back... Iraq has, and always will be, a target in that regard...

There really is no way we will not be fighting over there...


Posts: 1163 | From: Ardmore, OK | Registered: Jun 2002  |  Logged: 65.80.161.254
Entaris



Dark Priest

Member # 224

posted 09-07-2002 05:02 PM     Profile for Entaris   Author's Homepage   Email Entaris     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
hmmmm.... i think im gonna hope i dont die, cause one of these day's all this war is gonna kill me... it may just be the pacafist in me, but i dont think a war on iraq will do anything but cause us problems... if anything, we need to focus our attention to defence, if we can defend against any of there weapons, then we can take what they give us(should they choose to give us anything) then go aniholate them, and know that we werent "jumping the gun" on things, and that they deserved to die...

but hell, im an idiot, and i know for a fact that at least anakin will yell at me, and probable bob as well...so just be warned, im prepared for it!

anyway, the real thing we gotta worry about is the planet, we are a LOT more advanced then we were in our last major warings, a war now could end all life as we know it, if both sides see the others need to be ended, well then, thats double damage and POOF no more planet... oh joy.

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"Insert Snappy quote here"


Posts: 796 | From: Victorville | Registered: May 2002  |  Logged: 67.219.51.252
Graysith



Chosen Daughter

Member # 27

posted 09-07-2002 05:14 PM     Profile for Graysith   Author's Homepage   Email Graysith     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Anakin and I have been discussing this, and I don't think we'd really get into a nuclear winter scenario. Iraq, if they do have nuclear capabilities, doesn't have the means of making or launching ICBMs, at least not to our knowledge, so any nuclear attack would be probably a nuclear device they made here and then ignited within our borders. Thus it would be an extension of their terrorism tactics and mentality, and make it difficult for us to zero in on those who did this (at least immediately; we'd track the bastards* down!)

But, point is I don't think we'd unload a full-scale launch on each other. And that is what would create the nuclear winter scenario. It would be a sneaky localized thing, maybe more than one. Hopefully not as big as what the ICBMs could deliver.


*There, Loban. I said it.

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I ride the Stormcloud and the Night!


Posts: 3904 | From: Indianola, Iowa | Registered: Jul 2000  |  Logged: 64.12.96.79
Loban



Padawan

Member # 253

posted 09-07-2002 05:43 PM     Profile for Loban   Author's Homepage   Email Loban     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

Posts: 1163 | From: Ardmore, OK | Registered: Jun 2002  |  Logged: 65.80.161.254
Anakin



Retired

Member # 8

posted 09-07-2002 05:49 PM     Profile for Anakin   Author's Homepage   Email Anakin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Entaris, shut up. Don't think you know me well enough to know when I'll call you an idiot, because you don't.

I want to explain one thing that the Bush Administration isn't explaining very well to the public. (what do they do well?)

We are not going after Saddam Husein simply for building nuclear weapons. As you know Pakistan, India, and many other nations have nuclear weapon. Among the nations working on them (like Iraq is) would be North Korea and Iran.

The reason we're going after Saddam and not Iran and N. Korea is for a few reasons. One, Saddam violated the Cease Fire Agreements ending the Gulf War, and the things inspectors were there to destroy, are now being created again. Two, there are quite a few links betwen Iraq and Al Queada. Links which do not exist with Iran and definitely not with North Korea. The thinking behind it is that if Saddam gets nukes, it will be easily tranferable to Usama, who will then use them in the USA.

That's basically the gist of it. Of course there are other moral reasons to take him out. But those wouldn't justify a war.

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Posts: 1663 | From: Louisville, Ky/Chicago, IL | Registered: Apr 2000  |  Logged: 12.220.189.75
Entaris



Dark Priest

Member # 224

posted 09-07-2002 05:50 PM     Profile for Entaris   Author's Homepage   Email Entaris     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
its really not nuclear weapons im worried about, i mean, who knows what our goverment, or theres for that matter, have as weapons...we sure as hell dont, they dont tell as nothin, we're on a "ill tell you if you see what happens, and even then i must just kill you" information basis...

but, as im sure a few of you know, i have really bad issues with the goverment and all, so dont mind me!

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"Insert Snappy quote here"


Posts: 796 | From: Victorville | Registered: May 2002  |  Logged: 67.219.51.252
Anakin



Retired

Member # 8

posted 09-12-2002 08:49 PM     Profile for Anakin   Author's Homepage   Email Anakin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey folks. This morning, at the United Nations in New York, President Bush spoke. For those of you who are undecided, or against action in Iraq, I would suggest reading the text of the speech.
http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,62886,00.html

Click the link.

He makes a very good case for UN Action in Iraq. It's more tha nuclear weapons, read it and you'll see, it's a matter of principle, and of safety. Check it out, then post if the spirit moves you.

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Posts: 1663 | From: Louisville, Ky/Chicago, IL | Registered: Apr 2000  |  Logged: 12.220.189.75
Graysith



Chosen Daughter

Member # 27

posted 09-12-2002 11:51 PM     Profile for Graysith   Author's Homepage   Email Graysith     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
He's got one heckuva speech writer, I'll say that much...

...for now.

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I ride the Stormcloud and the Night!


Posts: 3904 | From: Indianola, Iowa | Registered: Jul 2000  |  Logged: 64.12.96.79
BobPalpatine



Foo Fighter

Member # 17

posted 09-13-2002 03:04 PM     Profile for BobPalpatine   Author's Homepage   Email BobPalpatine     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I know some people who are friends with his main speech writer (he has more than one I beleive) cause he is from my area. They say the guy has a way with words and that Bush doesn't do them justice. Thats just because Bush isn't much of a public speaker. (but I personally feel he's doing a pretty good job.)

I really want to hit Sadaam though...not as much as Osama, but almost as much.

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"Can't you hear my motored heart? Your the one that started it!"

-Foo Fighters "Generator"

Cogito ergo sum

BobPalpatine
Holonet Admin


Posts: 681 | From: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: Jun 2000  |  Logged: 204.184.54.44

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