I still would like an answer that makes logical sense.

Once again Easter is upon us, and once again I muddle through pretending to go along with everyone. That's just me, though. Two things I've wondered about always come to the forefront of my mind during this time. Can anyone out there come up with a valid and logical explanation?

1. OK according to the Bible, Adam was the first man and Eve was the first woman. They had two sons, Cain and Abel. Cain killed Able and was punished by God and sent out of Eden. He went into Nod, I believe, and there married and begat a nation.

So who the heck did he marry if he was the only living child of the first man and woman?

2. This whole bit about the Israelites being the "Chosen People" makes no sense to me. I mean, think about it. They are "chosen" by God, yet have been nationless wanderers (or something like that) throughout all their history, or most of it. Yet as Hebrews (Jews) they don't believe that God's son Jesus is the Messiah. Now, how is it that the people chosen by God wouldn't believe in his son? And if those who believe in Jesus are the ones destined to go to heaven and others will therefore be denied admission, does this mean the Chosen People, after being screwed out of a nation here on earth, will likewise be screwed out of eternal life?

Hehe... just always kinda wondered. Seems there's a distinct lack of logic in here somewhere....

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But #2...

Concerning the Israelites belief in Jesus as the Son of God...

They are still human, and still had the CHOICE to believe or not to believe. They'd been operating under strict Jewish costums which were modified by things that Jesus did during his tenure on Earth. As for the Chosen People being "screwed out of eternal life," once again God created all with the ability to choose for himself or herself.

And most Christians believe that, because the Jews are God's Chosen people, that they will be given a final chance to accept him towards the end of time. I could go into a big biblical thing here about it, but it's highly complex, so I'll just leave it at that.

And "lack of logic" or not, that's what I believe.

[ 03-30-2002 12:46 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Mara1Jade ]

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There is a problem with the question. Jews do not believe Jesus was the Son of God, therefore, they are not going against God. I could make the argument that this is a test by god for the jews, the ones that left the faith and followed the ploy lose, and the ones that live through everything thrown at them, win.

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And if that was too convuluted to follow, that wasn't my intention.

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To me, it appears as though he who believes the strongest gets there... and all beliefs operate on that principle... so accordingly, everyone either goes to Heaven or not depending on whose viewpoint and whose faith we are talking about.

I mean, those of Christian faith say they will, and those who are not Christians will not. Yet those Chosen People will get there according to their own belief. Here is another seeming paradox.

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The God that I believe in doesn't sit in the clouds and say that everything is okay and that everyone will just make it into heaven.

And really, if I'm going to believe something with the conviction that I believe that Jesus was the Son of God, God himself, what would you think of my convictions if I then said that anyone can get to heaven any way that they like? What would be the point of my believing that someone needs to accept Christ as Savior if I didn't believe it all the way?

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It's not a matter of YOUR belief. It's not a matter of ANOTHER'S personal belief. It's the juxtaposition of the belief systems in this world. I don't know how else to say it.

It's a matter of taking a step back, stepping OUT of your belief system, and taking a logical and OBJECTIVE look about. It's noticing the belief systems of others in comparison to one's own... and the paradoxes that result when you try to gel them all together.

It's a "what's good for the goose not being good enough for the gander" sort of thing.

I guess that before I started heavily modifying my belief system, I thought there was only one god. This god I believed to encompass the entire world. Yet according to the variety of schisms betwixt and between all these various and sundry systems, only the people in that individual system who follows certain "parameters" held by that system will be "saved," or "go to heaven," or whatever, according to their system. According to each system, those who don't follow that system will not. (Except maybe for the Hindi and the Taoists... the former being very liberal and holistically oriented, the latter being somewhat mystical.)

You said it yourself: "...what would you think of my convictions if I then said that anyone can get to heaven any way that they like? ((Bold mine)) What would be the point of my believing that someone needs to accept Christ as Savior if I didn't believe it all the way?" According to this, which is a very strong Christian belief, then if you don't believe in Christ as Savior you can't get into heaven. So all the OTHER cultures who do not believe in him will not either. Yet according to THEIR beliefs, Christians are faulty by not adhering to certain parameters in THEIR system... and so we will not go to heaven either.

Unless there ARE myriad gods for every system, and myriad heavens and so on, I still see this as a paradox on a global scale. Who is "right" and who is "wrong?" And why would god choose a people and then not let them gain entry into heaven because they don't believe in his son? Isn't he allseeing? Why "choose" them to deny them? What's the big deal about a test of this sort, if that's indeed what it's supposed to be?

I still can't see the logic in any of this. And that is what I'm striving to understand.

All that exists is atoms and space. Everything else is just happy coincidence.

[ 03-30-2002 03:14 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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Another thing, you expect people to change their religion, to follow Jesus, to get into Heaven. Except, they feel the God they follow will let them in for what THEY believe. So, who is right? And if you are, why would God send people who didn't have a choice to believe or not to Hell? Not everyone has the choice to believe in different religions either because they are repressed, or because they don't know about it.

And why would you expect people to change their religion to follow Jesus, so they can get into Heavan, when you would reject anyone who tries to change your own beliefs?

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And "changing your religion" is something you do when you know that it's the right thing. I'd be stupid to sit here and argue logic with you on all of this when alot of what I believe is historically based, and can't be "logically proven." It's kinda like asking someone to logically prove that George Washington existed. You can bring out HISTORICAL FACTS that he existed, but you can't "logically prove it."

And as to why would I expect anyone to change their religion when I would "reject" theirs (no, I am NOT rejecting THE PERSON. Just because I don't agree with what you or someone else believes DOES NOT MEAN I have somehow rejected you as an idividual..do you reject me because I'm a Christian...?

...anyway, that all stems back to the question I asked that you didn't answer. What would be the point in my believing all this if I then said that a person could get to heaven any way? That just doesn't make sense. Why would it be important that I follow the beliefs that I do if they really didn't matter? Why make that sacrifice and get ridiculed for it?

And as for the people that are in different regions that haven't heard of Jesus, that is what missionaries are for. And I have some definite beliefs about those who have NEVER had the opportunity to hear. I think if you were never presented with THE CHOICE, it's a bit different than if you were.

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Second, I never said you reject a person because of their religion. I said you reject people's advances to try and get you to change yours, when you expect people to change their own so that they'll get into heaven. Granted, you mean well, but what if they're right and you're wrong?

That the $64,000 question Mara. Why would you believe in it if anyone can get into Heaven? Seem life for you would be easier if you chose the believe anyone can get there, the same way you choose to believe that only christians can get there. You only believe in Christianity because it's what you were raised with, and when you believe something so deeply, no wonder you think you can "feel" God there with you.

Missionaries were in a lot of places, but they weren't everywhere, and in some of the places they were they aren't there any longer, and the people aren't christians anymore. And what would you say about those who haven't heard about him? Are they doomed to Hell anyway?

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And if you tell me one more time that I believe what I do simply because that's how I was raised, I'm going to come rip your head off. I know you don't believe me, but there's more to it than that. I'm SICK of people downgrading what I believe because they THINK I they know why I believe it. You can't and shouldn't assume to know the reasons I believe what I do. You assume that I've used NO LOGIC to figure this out. You assume that I'm just a blundering idiot who follows everything that I'm told.

You would be wrong.

And I don't know why I bother to answer these questions. It's not that I'm not perfectly willing to nor that I can't answer them. It's that, in spite of my answers, you continue to insist I'm being lead blindly along. If I have an answer to the question, I've OBVIOUSLY thought it through on more than one occasion.

And I know you SAY this wasn't what this thread was meant for, but I'm beginning to wonder if it was meant for nothing more than to start a big argument and debate. Debates are fine, but devaluing what someone else believes in the context of religion IS PERSONAL. It's not the same as the politics you believe in, it dictates the very meaning for your existence.

You can argue that they are simple questions. But how would you feel if one day I posted "A simple question" for all the atheists? I honestly wouldn't, because I DO believe what I believe fully, and to do so would merely be patronizing.

Ok, now I've rambled and made myself look an idiot probably, but this sort of thing really sets me off. You needn't worry. I won't be answering anything else in this thread.

I'm only an idiot anyway.

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The account of creation is an allegory. That means there weren't necessarily these two people named Adam and Eve who were the FIRST people EVER. I mean, geez, we've found fossils of hominids, so there were obviously more than just 2 people around back in the day.

Which isn't to say that Genesis isn't the truth!!! Because we all know that there are different ways of stating the truth. My PERSONAL belief (note the emphasis on personal) is that Adam and Eve are not actual historical figures. They represent the first people who became aware of a higher power (God) and chose to disobey the will of God.

That's my take on it anyway. And Mara, you are NOT an idiot. Your faith is a great thing and you're braver than I am for standing up for it. There's a reason that I don't usually get into these threads, and that is this:

You will never convince someone that your beliefs are right and truthful when they're totally committed to believing otherwise. No offense, but I know Ani is always going to see Christianity as a crock, and I'm not going to try to tell him otherwise. But like I said, Mara, you're a braver person than i am.

Most atheists are smart people, and they can talk me around in circles until I'm not even sure if I'm saying what I truly believe or not. That's dangerous, and no offense to anyone, but I'd rather stay out of it.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for what other people believe, but I do expect them to show me the same respect. "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."--Voltaire

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I think you missed the gist of the question again. It was not dealing with rejecting a PERSON on the basis of his belief... it was dealing with scrutinizing different belief systems to determine which is "right" and which is "wrong." (I hate to use those words, but at the moment can't come up with anything better.)

Again, taking the "big step outwards," so to speak, so see all the belief systems in their RELATIONSHIPS with one another.

Christians believe theirs is "right," and send out missionaries to spread "The Word" to persuade others to alter their beliefs and follow them. (A belief system which, to me, is definitely in the long run extremely male-oriented, in how it views both people and the world in general. This system seems to support the use of the world/things more so than the nurturing/care of it that is found in some eastern beliefs as well as those followed by Native Americans. The whole idea of "male is boss, female the life-bringer but somehow "subservient" or "secondary" to the male -- the whole thing about Eve being created from Adam's rib states this clearly --, ownership of things, use of resources, so on and so forth. This in itself is worthy of another thread of discussion, I think. But that's my humble opinion.)

Anyway, point is, Christian missionaries feel it their "duty" to go out and persuade others to change their belief systems, because somehow this one is the right one. I don't think many others actively do this; just because we have somehow been "told" to do this to me doesn't stand as any proof that this is the "genuine article." I mean, the "fact" that we have been "told" comes directly OUT OF our own belief system, not an outside source. If the latter, I would really sit up and take more notice.

It's like saying, "These eggs that I'm selling are the best eggs because I say they are, and I base that upon the farmer from whom I bought the chicken." Nevermind the myriad other chickens out there in the world happily spitting out egg after egg after egg, some perhaps another flavor or color, but who's to say which one is best? Where is the overall judge of the chicken competition, to point and say, "Here's the winner, the eggs from this chicken and all its progeny are the ones to buy!"

The objective third party. That kind of thing.

So where is it? How do we know that our beliefs are "the ones to have..." and justify the persuasion upon others? And saying "you gotta have faith," to me, is just too easy an answer.

Again, may I point out the fact that the limbic system in the human directs both thought and emotional processes. We are biologically geared toward linking emotions with thoughts/beliefs. It's hard to separate the two, to carefully study all the facts one can and therefore come up with a supported answer.

This difficulty is what lies behind all the brouhaha in the "Leaving Orbit" thread: the separation of beliefs/thoughts from the emotions inherent to them. I think teaching people of this relationship, then teaching the importance of gathering fact and using deductive reasoning is really the only answer to many of the world's problems... catering to everyone's emotional states will only lead us in circles.

But I've digressed.... Heh.

"......anyway, that all stems back to the question I asked that you didn't answer. What would be the point in my believing all this if I then said that a person could get to heaven any way? That just doesn't make sense. Why would it be important that I follow the beliefs that I do if they really didn't matter? Why make that sacrifice and get ridiculed for it?"

Hehe... boy does this support what I've been trying to show. The thought/emotion thing. See how quickly you've leapt into the assumption that I (or anyone else) am somehow ridiculing you (or anyone else holding these beliefs) for your beliefs? I'M NOT.

Anyhoo, I think religions were developed in an older world where man didn't have much of a handle on things. They were handy to explain the unexplainable. "Faith" is so easy and comfortable to fall back on in regarding the unknown. Not to mention Man is intelligent... and just can't stand the thought of his own mortality. So everyone develops some sort of belief reflecting something to the fact that if certain parameters are adhered to, we won't really die. And that there's always a big nurturing "mother" (god, gaia, whatever) looking out for us so we don't have to be afraid of the dark.

That's the conclusion I am currently agreeing with. But as with anything else, more fact coming along on down the pike may alter it completely.

And again, it is the opinion of THIS WRITER, and not necessarily those of this site or any other members of it.

[ 03-31-2002 11:25 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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RA, I know that's how it should be interpreted, but some people honestly believe two people named Adam and Eve actually existed. I like the way you interpret Adam and Eve, but there is a problem to it. Obviously, the first people couldn't write it all down, so you can rule that out. And we know that 1000's of years ago people really didn't focus a lot on history, and if they had, chances are they still wouldn't know how the first humans thought. So, it's either a really good guess and they actually meant what you interpret it as, or, and this is what I really do think, whoever wrote it actually thought something like that happened.

I know it's hopeless to try and change the way people think, that's why we'll ultimately send the entire world to hell.

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Again, Man is intelligent and inherently arrogant because of it. We just can't seem to be able to even consider the possibility that we JUST MIGHT BE only another animal in the "Circle of Life" on this earth, albeit a higher-thinking one. Everything revolves around us, because we think.

"I think. Therefore I am."

As far as "athiests" being "smart" people and therefore "dangerous..." Hmmm. This kinda goes right back to the ol' Tree of Knowledge in the garden, ey? (Again right out of the ol belief system, heh.) And touches lightly on "the end of the world" as presented in Revelations: an end which I postulate (POSTULATE!!!) might not represent the end of the world, per se, but the end of the Childhood of Man. Our stepping out into the discovery that the only beliefs we ought to be worrying about concern those regarding EACH OTHER, and how we use our time while on this planet; how ethically we treat each other and the earth, all that kind of thing. Letting go of the apron strings, of the need to have that "mother" or "big brother" or "all-knowing wise one" looking out for us... because we have finally recognized that responsibility as being OURS. We have "grown up."

Because maybe... just maybe, this is the only time we really do have. And in that case, time would indeed be a terrible thing to waste.

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I'm not saying a person's beliefs are not right. I am saying that on a personal level, a person's beliefs are indeed RIGHT FOR THAT PERSON.

What I am trying to distinguish is the truth of them, in the true meaning of the word. That involves stepping into the realm of total objectivity, away from emotions and so on, in order to not only gather all the data possible, but to analyze it accurately and come to a conclusion. As science always does in everything it investigates: true science seeks truth.

I used to believe faithfully what the Bible taught, and what I was taught in church. I began to study more, to expand my views. Then I got into the allegory interpretation. I kept studying, gathering all the information that I could. Now I am where I am in what I believe, but that is just me. I am not upset that I cannot alter anyone's views, for that is not why I began this thread. I began it simply to see if there was any other fact out there which might substantiate my earlier belief system, to make it more "right" for me.

So far, no dice, and I stay where I am in what I personally believe. But that's me.

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I've seen alot of things, a hell of alot of things, that just are frankly inexplainable. You can add scientific theory after scientific theory, but theories are just that--something that someone PROPOSES they believe is "right."

Take for example the "Big Bang." Now, I don't know if you personally believe in this, but it is still largely A THEORY. Nobody was there when Adam and Eve were created except Adam and Eve. And CERTAINLY no one was there when the Big Bang happened. And if the big bang created all that is, how "In the Universe" (can't say Earth in that case, eh?) were the atoms that collided and such there BEFORE it happened?

It's scientific law that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. Big bang seems, to me anyway, to be proposing that matter was created out of NOTHING. You could argue that the energy was there and the matter, which is energy, was formed from that, BUT THEN WHERE DID THE ENERGY COME FROM? WHO PUT IT THERE?

That's part of my line of "logic" on the whole "why I believe in God" thing.

And Gray, as far as the male/female relationship that you see in the Bible, yes, it's there. And yes, I think there's a bit of logic behind it. Now, I am MOST CERTAINLY NOT saying that a male should "rule over the female," you should be able to tell that at least somewhat from the things I write on RPG here (and how the heck THAT particular parallel came up, I don't know...just convenient, heh). But I do believe the male/female design is beneficial because MEN AND WOMEN THINK DIFFERENTLY. There is scientific proof to support the differences in how the male and female brain operate. But, you put them together, and VOILA! you have an amazing team.

I think this was the intention to begin with, and that, at least in my church and my personal views, seems to be the common belief.

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Rogue: your comment that "athiests are smart..." and "...can talk circles around ya..." which somehow "...is dangerous..." is in itself an extremely dangerous thing to say, don't ya think? I mean, just in and of itself it suggests that nonathiests are therefore stupid, doesn't it? Which ain't a fact at all.

I like to think of it more of as being more learned. LEARNED DOESN'T MEAN SMARTER. More input gained, of a wider variety, to be assimilated and integrated. Not stupid. Learning takes TIME. It's an ongoing event, and the more actively you seek it, the more "input" you will have over time. Stupidity is stubbornly refusing to expand a paradigm, to refuse to consider an opposing view/fact/opinion, whatever, simply because "it isn't right." Stupidity is refusing to acknowledge diversity, so to speak. I'm sure you've heard teachers say over and over: "There is no such thing as a stupid question except NO question." I don't think that's what athiests are doing. As well as I don't believe it is what anyone ought to do. Gather your data. Assimilate for yourself. But give yourself a broad enough data base to work with. Then come to your own opinion/view/belief/whatever.

Everyone has a right to their own beliefs and opinions. But I think that to instinctively reject another bit of data as being automatically wrong or false without checking to see if it actually IS wrong or false is a dangerous thing to do, and leads to stagnation in the long run.

And I am bending over backward to try to avoid doing that. I am, as always, seeking fact and proof and truth. The more data gained, the more data to integrate and the more accurate conclusion I can make. Simple.

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YES. At the moment it is a scientific Law that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed. But guess what? In science, laws remain laws until disproven. That is what science is all about: TO CONTINUALLY SEEK THE TRUTH BY CONSTANTLY TRYING TO DISPROVE.

Just a little fact that most people don't understand because they don't realize it to begin with. Example, Newton's laws were THE END OF IT as far as motion and gravity was concerned. But then we came to learn of subatomic particles and how they operate, and Newtonian mechanics just fell apart on a quantum level. A whole new set of laws has developed out of it; the original laws have been further fine-tuned.

Up until we learned that quarks DO spontaneously and autonomically pop in and out of existence we said, "Yes. Matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed." Now cosmologists are studying this phenomenon further, to continue their constant fine-tuning of what we know.

But rest assured: the laws we do come up with in science do describe the matter and energy they are meant to. We are just developing new laws as we become more and more educated in the "matter" of that matter and energy.

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Do you honestly not see how belittling that is to me? You could at least RESPECT the beliefs that I have for what they are and agree to disagree. But you seem to enjoy taking it a step further and downgrading my belief system as "blind faith." If it were "blind faith" I could NOT have produced the post I did concerning the big bang. Blind faith means that I just said "ok" and went with it.

Well HELLO, I didn't. So get over the idea that this is what I did.

And I still don't really buy that matter can just "fall out of a hat." That's like me saying I can wiggle my nose and "poof!" dinner will appear (at least, that's what it's like TO ME.)

If anyone ever PROVES THIS, let me know. I'd love to make a new car appear.

[ 03-31-2002 01:46 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Mara1Jade ]

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Until you give me proof of God, or a logical reason that you believe, I'm still gonna say that you follow blindly, maybe not as blindly as most, but you still do.

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You talk about Christians judging, and that's precisely what you are doing to me by saying that I'm following blindly.

There are two sides to every coin. I've never said once that I don't respect your beliefs and opinions for what they are. I do. I DON'T, however, agree.

But, I DO EXPECT THE SAME RESPECT from anyone that replies to me. If not, there's no point in this thread.

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