As you probably all know the US was attacked by terroists today and its brought our whole country to its knees and opened our eyes to the fact that we are not invincible that we are very vunerable no matter how advanced we are....

"The third big war will begin when the big city is burning."
- Nostradamus, 1654

Man...some people in this world still don't know how to be moral still. Gas stations are raising prices in some places just to raise them to take people's money. The station my mom works for(she works in the corporate office as head buyer)was told by amaco that they CANNOT raise their prices...but other stations are doing it anyways and cops are going out and getting them to change them right now.

Right now the US should be mourning the dead NOT swindling people out of money.

However, that does not excuse this horrid act. It was cold, calculated, and just plain sick.

They picked the planes with the most possible fuel on them. They took planes from UNITED and AMERICAN. They chose 9-11 (911) as the date for the attack. They acted between 8:45-and 9 something, when the most people in those buildings were at their desks. They attack the World Trade Towers and the Pentagon, national symbols.

I'm furious. I hope we blow the living hell out of them.

God Bless the U.S.A.

by Lee Greenwood

If tomorrow all the things were gone
I'd worked for all my life,
And I had to start again
with just my children and my wife,
I'd thank my lucky stars
to be living here today,
'Cause the flag still stands for freedom
and they can't take that away.

I'm proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free,
And I won't forget the men who died
who gave that right to me,
And I gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today,
'Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God Bless the U.S.A.

From the lakes of Minnesota
to the hills of Tennessee,
Across the plains of Texas
from sea to shining sea.
From Detroit down to Houston
and New York to L.A.,
There's pride in every American heart
and it's time we stand and say:

The flights that were Highjacked were from United and AA, they were numbered as follows:

11, 93, 175, and 77

11 = Tuesday
9+3 = 12 = Wednesday
1+7+5 = 13 = Thursday
7+7 = 14 = Friday

Yesterday, the Senators were on the steps of the Capitol building, and out of no where came "God Bless America". How amazing.

Everything that we stand for, freedom, liberty, justice, was threatened yesterday. Everything that we have ever fought for, was threatened yesterday. What proves this is the nation's we never thought would come to our side, have come. Cuba is volunteering to send supplies to New York to help. China has said they are with us in this, as well as Russia. All of these countries know they wouldn't have what they have if it weren't for our country.

If these third world ignorant terrorists think they can break our spirits by breaking our buildings, they are wrong and they will soon find out how wrong they are.

Oh say does that star-spangled banner yet wave?
O'er the land of the free
And the home of the brave?

Its Osama Bin-Laden that we have to find now and we gotta get him good for this.

Something that I find really sad...people are assaulting Arabs and Muslims across the country and threatening to bomb mosques. I'm just as mad as anybody about this, but if we start killing innocents, we're no better than those terrorists. Not all Muslims buy into these scary doctrines of Bin Laden, etc. Basically they have the same moral code as Christians and Jews. It's only a couple of fanatics who are twisting Islam for evil purposes. Please, don't be a bigot and blame all Muslims for the actions of a few nuts.

On another note, I uploaded this picture R2 and I made a few years ago:

Anybody watch the national prayer service? Hear the words of Billy Graham? Of Bush. I thought a few times Bush looked like he could cry, just like everyone else there.

I sat and cried as I watched it. I guess I'm going through the grief process somewhat backwards. Shock, disbelief, anger, and now sadness.

Other news...seems Russia isn't as welcome to an attack on Afghanistan as we are. I read on foxnews.com at school today that some russian officials, including a General, said that it's not likely that the US will lead a waron terrorism in Central Asia. I thought that sounded a little weird by mentioning the region.

And, the Afghan Militia has said they'll seek revenge on us if we attack. I'm wondering what they plane to do, since I'm sure we could have a nuke there in 5 minutes or less.

What the hell? Have they missed the fact that the terrorists THEY are harboring and refusing to produce just drove THREE planes into national monuments, killing thousands, and had a fourth on the way that was only diverted by courageous passengers?

Have they missed THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE DIED BECAUSE OF THEIR UTTER STUPIDITY???

Revenge on us my arse.

And I agree, Ani. If the terrorists had driven a couple of planes into the Big Ben, for example, they'd be crying the same story.

Seriously, we need to keep our anger. Mine is growing daily in leaps and bounds. I am into outrage, and it is burning just fine, thank you. I too never knew what patriotism I could feel... until now.

Nuking a country cause were gonna kill everyone in a country...and its gonna have SUBSTANTIAL effects on the world. Nuking a country could also start a nuclear war with other countries...its never a good thing?

"Wipe them out. All of them."

Actually, we have other weapons which are far worse than nukes that I think we should use instead. But to the end result, which I have just stated.

Those who harbor our enemies ARE THEMSELVES our enemies. We can't afford to "pick and choose" who among the population will die, and who won't. Sheesh; this is WAR. What do you think happens in war? Think only the military installations and fighting body dies? Do you honestly think "innocent women and children" in these enemy countries ARE truly innocent?

Get out of western thinking. This is an eastern culture. They think differently. Their women think differently. Their children are taught the same.

THE TALIBAN IS THE ENEMY. (Along with a certain coward and his bullies.) It resides in Afghanistan... although maybe by now, come to think of it, it may be in Pakistan. THAT wonderful country, back-pedalling to "help us" out of fear, no doubt has already let bin Laden and the Taliban leaders across its borders into hiding. Perhaps they are ones we should hit, once we chase the Taliban out like the cowards they are. We know their population is strongly anti-American; this doesn't just spring up independent of the leaders.

ANYWAY: now is not the time to stand upon idealism. That is a trait springing from the inexperience of youth. It has little impact upon reality. It is time now to, just once, get above ourselves, THINK as they think, and treat them as they would treat us.

I said it once, and I'll say it again. Wipe them out, all of them.

The only other option lies at the other end of the spectrum. This would be resultant of the "Christian ethic" which supposedly guides this country. "Love thy enemy as thy self." "Forgive and forget."

WELL. To do that would absolutely disempower the terrorists. They could blow us to smithereens, and we would just keep forgiving and smiling... and they would be at such a loss it isn't even funny. But I just can't see America doing this, either.

The Taliban has threatened Pakistan if they help us at all, they wouldn't do that if they Taliban leaders and bin Laden were there, and Pakistan wouldn't allow ground troops there, which (I heard) they agreed to do this morning.

Nuking Afghanistan is wrong too. The majority of people there are Innocent. The only reason you have to kill civilians is to demoralize the leaders, who will in turn want to end the war, to save their people. BUT, the people think dying to fight America is a good thing, so the leaders won't do shit.

This war will last a long time, and it won't only be against Afghanistan and bin Laden. Over time all countries harboring these radicals will become target as well, and all other terrorist organizations. The main goal is to kill it off. But it will take time, and dedication. Laurre, you're likely to end up become a suicide bomber with and jumping out of an airplane tied to a nuke over the middle east.

*Most* Christian leaders, probably around 95-99 percent TOTALLY agree we should go to war, that this was an act of pure and horrid evil, and that retaliation is absolutely necessary.

I don't agree that nuking them is a good option either. I think it has to be an all out strike, not some puny missles. But if we go nuclear we risk all those OTHER countries who have nuclear capabilities deciding since America does it it's okay. Nuking also makes us become one of them. I'm not saying we shouldn't retaliate, and hard. In fact, I'm ALL FOR IT. But if we just blast out their whole country without careful thought and precision, we might as well take the cowardly stance and fly a bunch of 747's into THEIR tallest buildings.

Thinking irrationally won't help either. Acting in anger generally results in suffering. If we lash out and attack the enemy now, we'll miss all the other terrorist targets that need to be irradicated as well. Our movements need to be cold, calculated, and precise. Call that idealist if you like, but I don't think it is.

A quick, hard and decisive hit is the only way we can reach these idiots' hearts. We have to think the way they do, beyond them, to utterly shock and disempower them. Face the fact that there are going to be casualties of war, accept that, and preemptively go squash those who are against us, and who harbor these roaches. They don't really think we will. They think we will stick to conventional responses. I just happen to believe we must be totally unconventional instead. I believe we have the right to be a little irrational right now.

Seems to me that in our conflicts in the past, there is always a pivotal point where hindsight has us looking back saying, "If only we hit harder, continued on, did more..." I'm just saying let's learn from this, use past hindsight, and DO MORE from the onset in this.

Come to think of it, we do have worse weapons than nuclear ones we can utilize... but heh-- sure seems to me the nukes will make the biggest psychological impact. (Not to mention physical one. )

And finally, in the end, it really doesn't matter to me what you guys think. I believe what I believe. The Christian ethic is weak. It shows us as being weak. We have to set it aside and attack with the same cowardice they have attacked us, or it simply won't be recognized. If I had the lil Red Button, I'd push it right now, and with a smile on my face.

This is but one reason why I really don't believe in religion (that is my own opinion, folks)-- it just leads to all this heartache and pain and suffering. You believe as you wish, do as you do. I have let go of these particular apron-strings long ago.

You can't judge one country by the acts of others. If America were judged by some of the stuff we do in our country we'd be just as evil as them. We kill each other every day in America...but we still are a proud country. No one judges us on those crazy few who kill others...

Just like with in our country their are different people from the norm and its the same in Afganistan.

Nukes should not be a first resort option. ALL of our lives will be affected if nukes come into play or other stronger weapons. Nuclear warfare is meant as a last resort.

I'm sure if you went over to Afganistan or someother 3rd world country you'd be suprised at how many people want it to change and many wish for the American Government to come in and take over.

Laurre...could you please try to abstain from calling the Christian Ethic weak? They are a lot of people's beleif and there is nothing wrong with showing forgiveness. I don't think we should in this case but you make it sound as if Christians are weak minded all the time or something.

I feel no heartache in what I believe. I have no doubts that what I believe supports that we should most certainly strike back. And I DON'T appreciate the tone of the message that we are all clinging to "apron-strings."

If you are going to argue that people, government included, might not strike back hard enough because of concern for loss of innocent life, that's fine. And quite frankly, I understand the argument and agree that it might be an issue later on. But don't assume that all Christians are sitting in this country like wimps thinking we shouldn't strike back and that we aren't very aware that it will result in a huge amount of causualty. I'm not that stupid. We aren't that stupid.

Furthermore, I think you missed my whole message in my previous post outlining that this act was certainly sheer evil, and these people are evil. I think they deserve to be punished, "smoked out of their holes" and done away with. The Christian world as a whole agrees with this thought.

I know, I'm rambling. But you must understand I hold my religion very dear, and I don't appreciate it being blasted.

MY BELIEFS. MY OPINIONS.

Never have I tried to change yours. I have defended my own.

Now everyone, sit back and think what you have felt to what I have said. Religion, nukes and all. OVER BELIEFS WHICH WE ALL OUGHT TO HAVE THE STRENGTH TO KEEP STRICTLY PERSONAL IN THE FACE OF WHAT OTHERS SAY THEY BELIEVE.

THIS is how wars are started.

Ok, moving on now.

Anybody hear that the Pakastan are supposed to try to get the Taliban to turn Bin Lade over? Yeah, right. That'll happen...

*pauses for further consideration*

Has anyone stopped to consider that there might just be too many links, and quite TOO OBVIOUS ones, between this event and bin Laden? Does anyone really believe that a multi-millionaire truly does have the resources to perpetrate this hideous act?

One has to understand the eastern mindset, too. Granted, there is fanaticism... but there is also an honor. I would think that if truly and uniquely guilty, they would have kept their mouths shut. They would have talked all around it, run, but not lied. I can't see an out and out lie. I may be wrong, but I've had many Muslim friends in my life. This is what I sense, fanaticism be damned.

Heh... bin Laden might have DREAMED about accomplishing this... but I too am leaning more and more toward the fact that there are bigger fish lurking beneath these dark and noisome waters (to a certain "someone": there goes the poet in me) who are instead pulling the strings. Someone to whom bin Laden himself is a puppet. (Thus his extraordinary fear; the reason he only communicated via hand carried messages with one trusted brother...)

I dare to speculate (SPECULATE, PEOPLE!!!) further. Someone who, perhaps, sees the implemantation of a new Global Market, a new Global regime, a new Global "religion" aka belief system (yes, I said that), a "New World Order as its ultimate goal. What better way to eliminate the two top religious powerhouses than to instigate the Holy War to end all Holy Wars?

Someone sneaky, underhanded, patient and dire... a great and terrible organization, perhaps... sitting there in the dark like a spider, pulling the strings of the web.

Yes, this smacks of *gasps* "CONSPIRACY THEORY!!!"-- but it's not like there haven't ever been any of those before....

Anyway, we should still go after bin Laden for what he has done to us in the past (we seem to have "forgotten" those incidents, at least until this terrible action reminded us again of them and our apparent complacency) as well as we still need to go after the states who harbor terrorism.

I just now wonder who is the true foundation beneath those acts of terror....

And now a further pause for a Public Retraction:

OK, so I was over-speaking in my earlier statements. Nuking is the wrong thing to do. I know I was speaking out of utter outrage and anger, complicated by the then-sensed but not recognized fact that there just might not be any one real culprit to focus that upon, and so the only way to "cleanse" us of this blight is by overkill, knowing we'd get "him" or "it" in the mess of it all somehow. Heh.

Dr. Joyce Brothers was being interviewed yesterday, and she said that in the face of disaster, people react three ways:

1. They run around like headless chickens, accomplishing nothing.
2. They hunker into frozen immobility, like a deer caught in headlights, or retreat into the comfort of "immobile normalcy."
3. They instinctively ACT.

I know I am of the third category. When the Great Flood of 1993 hit us here in Iowa, I was right out there doing physical stuff. I was one of many out razing the interior of houses by hand which were deemed salvagable. This meant gutting them entirely on the inside, so they could be redone. It wasn't easy, and in many cases it wasn't safe. But that's what I did. (Almost fell through into a still-flooded basement when the floor gave way beneath the chair I was standing on; a cross-beam stopped the chair long enough for me to hop off. SHEESH)

ANYWAY, I am now pacing in yet more anger, confined because every instinct in me wants to go to NYC to physically HELP. And I can't. So I get madder and madder... and that anger kinda overcame logic in one big ol blast combined with overwhelming patriotism and justifiable anger...

OK, nuff said, moving on now.

The thing about bin Laden et al being puppets of someone bigger. That has occurred to me actually. Heck, it sounds really close to what I've been wondering all along.

*evil Sithish smile, fangs bared*

I have the PERFECT thing to do to these guys. Strap them to a nuke, blast it directly into space--ie, on a direct solar trajectory--and THEN let 'er rip....

(I'm gonna nuke 'em one way or another, I swear...)

I think I have come down from that razor's edge of heated, blind anger... but to something worse. Or better, perhaps; depends on how you look at it. Now I'm into cold, calculated and absolutely determined quiet rage and vengeance. Now I truly understand the meaning of that statement: "Vengeance is a dish best served cold."

I have been reading and watching specials today. I am beginning to see how bin Laden thinks as he does, why he hates us so much. (Actually, did we really have to keep our troops in Saudi Arabia so long after the Gulf War?) I am also really beginning to believe there was another one who masterminded this; it is said he has two lieutenants, one a doctor, and the other some military genius. bin Laden might have come up with the inspiration, but it was probably these two who planned it out step by step, and no doubt funded by Iraq and Saddam. (A reliable source also said bin Laden is probably worth maybe only tens of millions; not enough to orchestrate what this entire mess probably cost.)

We do have to proceed with the greatest of caution. NO BLIND KNEE-JERK REACTIONS. I am really, really afraid of what is in store with us if this retaliation is bungled as Clinton bungled the bin Laden camp bombing.... Justice must be done, but not in rage.

And wahoo, we're gearing up our warships. Yay. WHO ARE WE GONNA HIT? If we strike out ANYWHERE, we are going to be hit AGAIN within our own borders, and somewhere in the world is gonna be hit likewise. These guys ARE everywhere. And they've been here a long time. In 55 countries. And they're waiting.

We truly have a faceless, formless enemy. Striking back in ANY manner will only augment the Holy War these radicals think they are implementing. "I hit you, you hit me, we do this forever until everything is destroyed..." and then who will clean up the mess left behind?

That latter is what worries me.... right now, I don't trust ANYBODY, and not just the obvious "enemies," either.

I heard he was worth $250 million, and hasn't spoken to anyone in his Saudi family in a good 5 years, so I doubt they'd really know.

We've made it clear who is target number one, bin Laden and the Taliban. Those will be hit first unless there's some secret plan to attack someone like Iraq and they don't wanna let out on it just yet.

Of course we'll be hit again. But I have a lot of confidence they'll foil the majority of these now. They've warned Jordan and another country U.S. Embassy bombing might happen there, and they've arrested a ton of people. Sure, there are more out there, but now they'll have an even harder time doing this, since if anyone sees an arab doing anything unusual, they'll call the FBI. And if they do attack us again, it will only hurt their cause.

Because we are still acting out of knee-jerk hatred. Like I thought a week ago. Yes, we have every right to be angry, to feel violated. We have been violated.

I am not quite as confident as you. I'll say it again and again. This is NOT a war of Lions; it is a war of foxes. We must be cunning and sly, and out-think theses S.O.B.s. I don't think we should only be looking for "any suspiciously-acting" arab. Who's to say that whatever they planned for a second strike isn't already set and waiting? They sure had the time to set themselves up UNNOTICED for the attack on the WTC and Pentagon!

An attack on a country already in the throes of chaos is lower than snake-belly dirt, IMHO. I see that now. Not to mention the fact that it will just egg this thing into continuing on and on and on.

Mahatma Gandhi once said, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." So wahoo, here we go, off to the optometrist.

>"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending
>spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead
>of diminishing evil, it multiplies it... Through violence you
>may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact,
>violence merely increases hate.... Returning violence for
>violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a
>night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out hate;
>only love can do that."
> - Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

quote:

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Hmmm... if a member of the Saudi ruling family "doesn't know" of bin Laden's worth, then how the heck do we???

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Were you aware of the fact that there's a thing called the CIA? Sure, you'll say "what good are they? they missed this whole thing!", but money is easier to find out about than what happened.

quote:

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Have we yet uncovered the "missing link;" the proof positive? Yea or nay, why did we refuse to give it to the Taliban when they asked, in order to have bin Laden turned over in a bloodless manner?

Because we are still acting out of knee-jerk hatred. Like I thought a week ago. Yes, we have every right to be angry, to feel violated. We have been violated.

I am not quite as confident as you. I'll say it again and again. This is NOT a war of Lions; it is a war of foxes. We must be cunning and sly, and out-think theses S.O.B.s. I don't think we should only be looking for "any suspiciously-acting" arab. Who's to say that whatever they planned for a second strike isn't already set and waiting? They sure had the time to set themselves up UNNOTICED for the attack on the WTC and Pentagon!

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Even if we didn't have proof of bin Laden's guilt inthise act, we have it in tons of others. The Taliban knows that. We've declared a war on terrorism, bin Laden is the biggest terrorist of all. If sending small groups of the special forces there, at night, to carry out missions isn't 'fox like', then what is? Sure, we'll bomb them, but I don't think you understand we're not getting rid of intelligence, we're gonna make it much much stronger, which will hopefully find terrorists, and then on a case by case asis we'll either use diplomacy, military action, or law enforcement. I get the feeling you think we're a lot weaker than we really are.

quote:

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An attack on a country already in the throes of chaos is lower than snake-belly dirt, IMHO. I see that now. Not to mention the fact that it will just egg this thing into continuing on and on and on.

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I also don't like the fact that our country has such a short atention span. Week one it was mourning, the next week it was patriotism, and now it's killing Bin Laden. I went to a concert last weekend, and you wouldn't believe the ethnic slurs. "Bomb em', Make em' a crater, kill em' all". But I guess after Pearl Harbor, our grandparents were calling for Japanese heads on sticks.

The creep. Jihad indeed, buddy. Let us recall that YOU made this a "Holy War," not the US of A. We have reiterated that this IS NOT a war against Islam, that Islam is A PEACEFUL religion. You sir, are a nut. A raving lunatic. You have no honor.