A federal appeals court ruled today that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools is unconstitutional because of the phrase "under God." Whoa.

"One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Has the same ring as,

"One nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Though, in my opinion, I don't really see the point of having a 'pledge of allegiance' or at least having students in education say it almost everyday.

Basically, its just you announcing your loyalty to the country. Don't you think being a citizen, voting, joining the military, and applying for jobs guarantee that loyalty already? What's the sense of declaring your allegiance everyday (well, schools at least)?

Nothing wrong with a nation under God: read (your diety) as synonymous. And yes, though I personally do not believe in a diety, I see no reason why it should be yanked out of the Pledge.

What that statement means is one nation under the morals and justice and peacekeeping attributes as a God would want us to uphold. One nation embracing the tenets put forth by ones' personal diety so as to live peaceably together as one, and to hopefully lead the world (or assist, at any rate) into doing the same thing. It's the hidden nuance that is important, not whether the word "God" is written therein.

This only proves to me the continual downhill slide into mediocrity and worse that our country is heading toward. Next they'll decide the flag is going to offend the poor convicts in our prisons because it's STRIPED, or the animal rights activists will say its offensive to zebras and they'll change it to...

Nothing. That will please everybody.

And Knot, I don't see any difference between singing an anthem or pledging oneself to one's country. They are one and the same.

Speaking of: I suppose they're going to change the words to "God Bless America" now, right? I mean, what's the difference between that and the pledge?

Crime rages across cities, terrorist threats, allies going into war, and yet our government takes the time to break faith in its citizenry because of something thats not picture perfect. I'm pretty sure when our founding fathers created the Bill of Rights and created the U.S. Constitution they KNEW the nation was not going to be some perfect, utopian society.

Honestly though, and I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get flammed for this, I lost faith in this country in the Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinton scandal. The sight of the media attacking our own President like vultures, despite everything he had done, just made me sick. My time in middle school didn't help either. The so-called "racial equality" I've been learning so much during Black History Month turned to crap when I was plauged with black racists in a school that was 90 percent African American. That was hell for me then, and it still is now.

And come on people, are we gonna change every kriffing national tradition to be P.C.? Not everyone might believe in a God, but I sure as hell heard them singing "GOD Bless America" after September 11? Why? The traditions and patriotism HELD US TOGETHER? Just as pledging alligance to the Flag, as it is, holds us together. We aren't just talking about being united in Justice. We are talking about being united in justice as prescribed by the rules found in...

*gasp*

...the Bible. You know those 10 commandments that no one wants on the wall? That's where we get all the laws our country is based on. At least, that's where the guys back then got them. And if you want to argue that "times are changing," go back to argument A. It's A NATIONAL TRADITION. It's PATRIOTIC. The founding fathers wrote it as "One nation under God." If you don't like it, you don't have to say it. But don't go changing an over 200 year old patriotic tradition. We will NEVER satisfy EVERYONE. Next someone will say in pledging to the flag we are worshipping an object and that we shouldn't pledge at all...

...just leave it be. It's not like we don't have the choice to say it or not.

And Ahmad, after the events of 9/11, I'd hope you'd appreciate that you are here TO SAY the pledge of alligiance.

We recgnized that there were and would be religious differences in the population of the United States way back when the First Amendmant was ratified. They said that they recognize that a situation may come up where one would say "I believe this, but you believe that, and it's ok." The problem came in when the men who wrote the laws were religious men, who either ignored what was meant by the first amendment, or just did not understand that certain phrases could offend someone who believed differently. This is where we see "I believe this, we all belive this, so let's use it." That's ignorance. Not everyone believes in one God.

When "under God" was added to the pledge in the 50's, it was to show the world that we were God loving people, unlike the soviets. Those in power at that time ignored the fact that others may not believe the same thing, and thus, our generation gets screwed over by the ignorance of the former generation.

The pledge as it is right now, says that we are a nation under God (the christian god; see, in the 50s, when one said God in America, that's what it meant).

Now, though, we're smarter, and we realize what the first amendment means. We realize that there are other people alive who are not christians, or jews, or even muslims. We realize that those people have the same right as christians. They have a right not to have a religious belief shoved in their face, and the faces of their children. We have to remember that the limit for a freedom is when it takes someone elses freedom away.

It is your right to believe that this is a nation under god, and it is your right to say it. See, the pledge is ours. It's everyone's. It belongs to the muslims, the christians, the jews, the atheists, everyone. If it is everyone's it should offend no one. Out of the four groups, "under God" won't offend the Mulims, the Christians, or the Jews, but it will offend the Atheists, and it is theirs too, so "under God" won't work.

Guys, it's not been a year yet since September 11, or has everyone forgotten already? Are we that jaded? Was all that simply a horrific jolt out of the mundanity of life... and now it has worn off so we can go back to being fashionably politically correct?

If you live in this country, I mean born to it... or if you have come here and chosen our citizenship, then you'd damn well better be ready to pledge yourself to her... no matter how STUPID our leaders are.

I am SOOOO ready to start a REVOLUTION.

We need to follow our believes, as anakin said, the limit to freedom is when it takes someone elses away... That is a very good point, but also, flawed completly... because the only way to give freedom, without taking away freedom, is...impossible, by givign freedom, we must then take freedom, if we do not remove freedom, we would be really far off from were we were, people would be able to shoot eachother for no reason, and couldnt be trailed for it,
and yes I KNOW thats not at all what you had in mind, but im just trying to get you all to walk my path(as scary as that might seem.)

Second, what you said about freedom is screwy. It could be like this: "I want to kill him." "No, you'd be taking his freedom from him." "Well, then isn't my freedom being taken from me since I can't kill him?"

and as for Atheism i looked it up, its the disbeliefe in a diety...and so yes,the poeple i know are atheists. as they dont believe in a diety, they simply believe in perhaps science as the creator... everyone has a believe for the workigns of the world...Atheism doesnt change that fact...

if you want to dispute what i just said, then heres the direct post from dictenary, ill make your life easer, and less hard to say im wrong...

Has anyone here noticed that almost every tragedy that occurs in the United States brings its people closer together?

I mean, Pearl Harbor pushed the country into WW2, which we won. The assassinations of JFK and Martin Luther King, Jr. encouraged the government to change amendments in the Constitution. Heck, even the Civil War, the War of 1812, and the Revolution created the nation as it stands today.

So far, Congress, our Prez, and popular opinion polls are AGAINST this raging idiocy. And to think it all began with a father in California... who needs to go back to school himself and learn the difference between the terms "worship" and "ceremonial deism." He and the judge who made the ruling ought to be kicked out of America.

When we pledge our allegiance, it is to our flag and country, NOT to God. The Pledge does not say, "I pledge allegiance to the flag... ...and to our God." NO. It says, "under God," which is different. That line reflects the morality of this nation at the time of its birth... a morality which sorely needs to be replaced.

And hey, what about our currency? It DOES say, "In God We Trust" on it. Does this ruling pave the way to negating our very dollar?

I PLEDGE MY ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS:

A NATION BORN UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

The phrase "under God" was added in 1954...about fifty years ago.

The Pledge of Allegiance was created in 1892...about a hundred years ago.

Another interesting fact:

The phrase "under God" was a means to seperate the United States, in which the popular religion was Christianity, from the Soviet Union, in which the popular religion that was being pushed was Atheism. Today, the United States is now more populated with different religions than before Cold War times, and now we're buddies with the Russians.

Do we really need "under God" in the pledge now?

Oh, and here's some thoughts:

Notice that "under God" the word God is spelled with a capitalized G. As far as I know, only one religion has a god as a deity spelled wih a capitalized G(Christians). Had this been simply "under god", which makes a better reference to other religions, most people would probably sit better with the pledge.

But that's not the issue in this thread.

I still think it's a stupid ruling. It's unconstitutional to say the pledge? Jeez Louise, now THAT is really sad.

And as I said, I didn't hear anyone complaining that the Congress sang "God Bless America" after the events of 9/11. We forget too easily the things that REALLY MATTER. We are arguing over 2 words in the pledge.

Graysith, you're wrong. Whether you say "a nation born under God" or simply, "under God" doesn't change a thing. Those who stil don't believe in God will still say, "yea, right, God doesn't exist, this nation was born under anything."

And yes, the majority of the people in this nation think the ruling was wrong, so what? Do we go with the majority and take the rights of the minority? You have to have a compromise between both the majority and minority, something that wouldn't offend either side, which is the original pledge.

Entaris, science isn't a being. You worded it completely wrong. A better way is to say that even atheists believe something other than humans created everything.

Mara, it doesn't seem pointless to me at all. It's about principle. We say we're going to keep the church out of the state in order for people of religions that aren't christian to not feel secluded. And atheist doesn't believe there is a god, and therefore, this nation isn't "under God," yet the pledge says those words, and if you want to say the pledge, you gotta say those words.

The really sad thing is what Graysith, Congress, and the President are doing. When you look at the facts, the ruling is right, the pledge, as is today, is unconstitutional. The thing the three people I mentioned are using as an argument are that it's tradition, and wrong to attack it in this fashion. It may feel wrong, but the Constitution is the law of the land, and the courts must follow it. Maybe you don't pledge yourself to the constitution, but the President does, the congress does, and the judges do. Thank god for the judges, since we now know an oath means shit to the congress and the president.

quote:

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Originally posted by Anakin:[QB]Starting from the top:
And yes, the majority of the people in this nation think the ruling was wrong, so what? Do we go with the majority and take the rights of the minority?[/QB]

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Anakin look up Democracy in the dictionary. If you do I'm sure you will find that, whether the desicions are right or wrong, in a democracy, the majority makes the decisions.

You claim you want to go into politics.

Before someone hear loses an eye, perhaps we should stop this argument? everyone has the right to there opinion, and everyone's opinion is a valid one, no one, has a right to force there opinion on someone else, in saying this, i know the reply will of course be from anakin

"Thats why we have to change, we cant force our opinion on others" but no one forces anything, we do have the right to just say, sorry, i cant, i dont believe in this... in fact, the few poeple that i know, that stick to there belief that there is no god, our the few people that take the pledge seriously, they dont care that it say's "under god" they know that thats not the point of the pledge, that is simply to show that we love our nation, and would do anything for it... But as i said, we need to stop, before someone, mainly me as i seem to provoke people for some unknown reason, loses an eye, or a leg for that manor...

Chuckles.

Now at the risk of instigating another heated debate I just wish to say that THIS is why we will never have a global community on this earth. Nope, nope, nope, it just isn't going to happen. The silly little interbrain connection between emotion and logic precludes this from ever happening... though I wish it would come about one day, I just fear that human's natural tendency to flare over what they believe and unwillingness to accept other views is going to be a stumbling block of momumental proportions.

And please, by "accept other views" I DO NOT mean "assimilate them into one's own belief system." I mean them as they are written: accept that the other person has his or her own belief regarding a touchy subject, and leave it at that.

I guess it's called understanding.

And now I just wish to formally and publically apologize for the possibility that any of my words here were inflammatory.

Isn't the Constitution itself scattered with references to god, or the people and land under god, or something? I know it's been forever since I've read it, but I think it's in there.

Sooo... would this then make the Constitution, erm... unconstitutional?

May I quote:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them..."

and:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

The Constitution says there will be no "religious test" in assuming/running for offices. And so on and so forth. And I don't believe it EVER was a law or anything that children were required to recite the Pledge. Therefore it's just as stupid declaring it unconstitutional as it would be declaring the Declaration as such.

Again, it's reflection of our nation at the time it was drafted... or added onto. Let it remain the piece of tradition it is supposed to be, and those who don't want to recite it simply don't have to.

Now, unless there is a hidden amendment somewhere that I missed, or I skimmed the Constitution too fast, this is all I could find concerning the "forced establishment of any religion." (Quotes mine.)

Now... TO REPEAT... unless it has been an ESTABLISHED LAW to recite the Pledge, I just don't see the reason to rule it unconstitutional due to the two words, "under God."

Still researching... but I don't think I'll find that it was a national law or anything. It was something left up to the states, and then the buck got passed down to the schools.

Graysith, you call it a difference of opinion, I call it ignorance. Your reasons for having that opinion are wrong, unless of course you'd rather we not have a constitution.

Recinis, no one will lose an eye, we're all still friends outside of this thread. And, no, not everyone's opinion is valid. You must have evidence to back up your reasoning, valid evidence. My evidence is valid, it's the constitution.

Look folks, I'm not trying to force you to believe what I'm saying, I giving you evidence, clear evidence. Everyone who knows me knows I like to debate this stuff, because I have a chance to educate you, some people are just too stubborn to see the facts. Example: you have got to realize the importance of the Constitution in our government. Then you have to look at this ruling, and it's reasons, doing this shows you it's right. Then you put those two together, and say, "maybe we've been wrong the past 50 years."

Mara, the Declaration is a peice of history, it's not unconstitutional to say it, it's educational. And I know you have principle, but you apparently don't undertand the importance of the constitution.

The declaration cannot be called unconstitutional as it was written before the constitution, and by future citizens living under the constitution. I hate how you, Graysith, get pissed at the idea of calling something important in our history unconstitutional, even if it really is. All that is is ignoring the facts, which is called ignorance.

I know the atheist who brought this forth is a pussy, but it's a test for the American people and for the Constitution.

Excuse me, but a difference of opinion is NOT ignorance.

Refusing to discern the difference between the two IS.

Calling a person wrong: who is to say WHO IS WRONG? By what standards? And WHEN. Who is the overseer to declare, "this opinion is wrong and this opinion is right?" NO ONE. OPINIONS ARE BELIEFS, AND NOT SUBJECT TO BEING RIGHT OR WRONG.

Wake up.

I still say it is totally ridiculous that an idiot in California who is out for some easy cash IS able to do this. Our constitution, which allows the right to do just this, perhaps has gone TOO far in that such idiocy abounds, taking up valuable time and resources.

It is still absolutely nuts that this has been brought on the carpet. What about all the Americans who want it to remain as it is? As Mara pointed out, isn't that what a democracy is all about?

The little twit in CA isn't being forced to say the Pledge. And what you mean about "they don't want the faculty to organize it..." Organize what? Making a formal time to recite this? How the heck do you think this ought to BE accomplished then; just willy-nilly throughout the day? Again, ridiculous.

Reciting the pledge is not compromising the reciter into "being forced to believe in God." As it is AS I KEEP SAYING a reflection of the country when it BECAME a country (hence the same theme in the Declaration) reciting it just acknowledges THAT FACT... as well as pledging faith unto our country.

The guy in California didn't get cash for doing this. IT'S CALLED PRINCIPLE. If you read the constitution, you know why he did it. His daughter is being raised an atheist and every single day she has to sit there and listen to her classmates recite the pledge. Even if she doesn't say it the other kids are gonna make an outcast of her, call her unamerican, that is what the Constitution, and particularly the First Amendment, serves to protect.

Yes, we have a Democracy. We also have a Constitution, which is the law of the land. Even if the majority of Americans want something, they can't get it if it's unconstitutional. If they could, why the fuck would we have a constitution?

No, Graysith, stop being stupid. Every morning a few minutes can be given to do whatever you want, pray, pledge, anything.