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TEFLON! REMEMBER TEFLON!!!)

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How is it Clinton's fault? Who put American troops in Saudi Arabia? George Bush, in accordance with UN Resolutions. Should we say to hell with the UN and get out of there just to make bin Laden happy? Of course not. And you certainly can't blame the Israel-Palestine mess on him. Blame the Arab nations for not being able to live next to a Jew. They caused what it happening over there. The majority of Palestinians could care less who they live with as long as the violence stops.

Most of what Clinton did in regards to using military force was through the UN. It was the UN that had sites in Iraq bombed, it was NATO who acted in Kosovo to end genocide. Yea, let's all blame Clinton who if he hadn't said anything, even more deaths would have occured in Israel, and Kosovo, and Iraq. Give me a break. If you're gonna blame someone, be sure you know what you're saying.

Of course, I can't say Clinton did much for NASA, but at least he didn't cut the shuttle flights to 3 a year. And at least he didn't make it so the federal government only gave NASA the money to operate the ISS, not add on to it so eperiments can actually be done (the reason it was even made).

Blame BUSH! He cut taxes, didn't expect a war, and is trying to cut costs anywhere he can. What kind of idiot cuts the only program that researches the Universe, and will one day be our way off this earth after we kill it? Of course, he is religious and figures "God will provide" and screw science.

I'm done. Again, don't let it hurt your feelings.

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Clinton made a big deal out of us going abroad and "helping" as he called it but trust me I'm living abroad now and the rest of the world sees us as meddlers and Clinton as the worst of all - there have been many people here at school that say we brought it on ourselves - we force OUR ideals on other people - which is true - by going in so often and using force to get people to do what we want while all the while we let our CHILDREN KILL eachother we have shown the world that we are hypocrites - we got involved in Iraq under Bush for economic reasons - which everyone could understand - but the world does NOT see things the way we do as for as the rest - Clinton gave us a bad name - here in Europe and especially in the Middle East - my friends from there have often been surprised that I'm American cause I'm not an overbearing monster which is how they see Americans - we havce to face the facts of how the world sees us and we have to admit why. They don't want us involved in thier wars - as we inevitably take sides as far as they are concerned and great if we are with them but if not we're the bullies - Clinton really did ignore his own people in the favor of others who didn't want his help - don't want anyone's help - they are content to kill each other off - or at least solve thier problems thier way. Yes Bush has cut taxes and spending but remember the budget was passed before the war began - he has to cut costs for it somewhere - would you rather it be the Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, and Welfare that people depend on NOW for thier day to day existence, or the Education system so that in the future we have no sceintists - cause that is generally one of the first programs cut as it is one of the most expensive in the schools, or cut a program for a year when a year isn't going to make as much of a difference there as it will in these other programs - one lost year in school is a lost year of children, one year without medical care or food, clothing and shelter is death for a years worth of people that don't have to die. What other program is there that gets enough to cut without completely abandonning but NASA - I'm not a big fan of cutting NASA - I know it's important to our future - but there is no where else - you can't cut schools, health care, or the only money some people have to live on, there is the Environmental programs but that would be worse than NASA as it affects our daily life already, he could cut Military but of course being that costs are being cut for a WAR that doesn't work - there is NO WHERE else with a big enough budget! Cut home defense - I think not, cut road work - already done - that's in the state's hands and has been for decades, other transportation costs - already taken care of privately, by hte states and locally the Feds help almost zip with that... Look at the devisions of the federal budget and tell me what aspect of our daily lives do you want to loose - what can you do with out - then think of what a cronically ill person can do without then a school child - what can they do without in school, then our environment what part can we deal with not surveilling - then see what is left in the budget to cut - taxes can go up - but not right away - you have to wait for next year's budget - so April or May - I forgot which - Budgets are fixed and when catastrophe strikes something has to go to make room for what's needed more - and you have to think of what aspect one year won't make a big difference is - or start growing money on Trees - Where would you make this Cut? If you can find somewhere else to make it that won't immediately alter the lives of your citizens then criticize but above all the President's JOB is to think of his Citizen's first - Clinton didn't do that - we have plenty of evidience that he didn't - we have dead CHILDREN to show that he didn't - the US can't be everyone's big brother all the time - we need to let the rest of the world deal with thier problems on thier own for a bit and heal our own people - heal our children, protect them - stop our own poverty before we condemn that of others feed our own starving families before we shake our finger at other nations for not feeding theirs! The US needs to stop playing Hypocrite and really look to the needs of it's own people - Clinton sure didn't he tried to cut Welfare and Social Security, Bush is - he's sees where his nation needs help - and we do and he's doing something about it - he's pulled out of Isreal and yes it's gotten worse there but our school children don't have to worry anymore that thier classmates are going to come in shooting and kill them all - schools are better equiped to deal with it teachers are better changed - and the law that did that Bush signed while Clinton said it was the State's affairs - even after Columbine he refused! Bush is doing what American needs him to do for Americans right now - he'll get to teh rest but he needs time and America needs to heal first.

Trust me I know what I'm saying when I blame Clinton - Heck I remember Reagan being President if that shows you how old I am and I'm living in a different culture in a International school now so I know who others blame and they all say him - no one remembers that NATO or the UN were involved in certain things but everyone points the finger at the US - we have to think about that - what the world thinks of us is important - but so is the lives of our citizens - and Clinton did nothing for either. He didn't help our children when Congress repeatedly gave him the chance, and he showed the world we are bullies - that's all others see of the US - and we have to change it - the big brother policies have gone way too far and Bush is putting an end to that but it takes time and Clinton is still known as the International Bully... Just something to think about form the old-timer on the board...

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As for cutting budgets... why not an across the board cut on the salaries of our politicians? Cut back their spending allowances. Or better yet: put a ceiling on banks and insurance. Cut into the creditor's back pockets, and funnel that money in a far better direction. THEY are what I see as pulling Americans downhill, and fast. Admittedly I'm not an economist, but there has to be a way. More and more, funds in this country are being socked over to the wealthy, and we are getting a larger and larger schism between the upper and lower classes... and the middle one is wavering.

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Clinton didn't do anything about the school shootings, why? Because the power to create and regulate schools is delegated to the states. The ONLY reason the federal government steps in is because the states do a crap job of regulating schools.

It is stupid of you to prefer thousands of people to die over maybe 30 children in the US. Clinton saved countless lives in using the United States military do carry out what the UN and NATO ordered. Say we didn't do a thing, then we would be ridiculed for having the largest army in the world and not using it to save lives.

You say a lot of people (French people, mind you) thing Americans are war mongering and hateful? When is the last time the French did something efective for the UN? To show you how ignorant the rest of the world seems to be, I uploaded a recording of an article by a Canadian commentator written in the 70's. Download it,http://escapepod.net/americans.mp3

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Most of the countries we intervened in didn't ask for our help - we and the UN FORCED it on them! The Statue of Liberty talks about immigration which we have alot of still - and freer than alot of other countries at that even with our Quotas - it does not talk about going to them and using our army - which is one of the biggest critiques that we do have such a big army - it doesn't instil confience that we will help in other nations but fear that we will decide we need to help and force our idea of Help on them!

Remember when you put in things on Canada they are our CLOSEST Allies still - maybe not in war but in trade and other such stuff - htey don't have the military we do but they are our Allies and they think similarly their government is very close to ours you can't judge teh world's view on only them or Europe and then apply it to the Middle East, Asia, the former Communist Block, Africa or any other area whose veiwpoint on life drastically differs from our own!

Graysith as for the Banks and such - that is considered private sector it isn't in the Federal budget and the federal government does not have the power to do what you ask - it's unConstitutional.

Anakin - as for the schools true it is the State that sets up and regulates schools but since the beginning of the Cold War - actually WWII the feds have the right to set a basic standard which they have done in Curriculum, desegragation, and safety in the past - Clinton had every right to sign that bill - congress had every right to pass it but he didn't and they did. 5 minutes of his time would have saved alot of children but he didn't even think about us his own citizens! And "Saving" people who don't wnat to be saved only brings resentment from the "saved" who tehn retaliate in the way we saw Sept 11. Who knows what group we "saved" will be fed up next? Bush is pulling out of everything that isn't affecting our citizens and that is helping - our report with others has gone up - way up because of this - even within our Allies who agreed that we should go in! I remember the Cold WAr - Well I don't want to see that happen again but it was our Foreign policy that started that and Clinton's foreign policy might have started another - though slightly Hotter Cold War again - hopefully Bush can put a stop to it but some people have Long Memories.

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We use our military to work with the UN and NATO. Almost all countries are members of the UN. We act upon those nations when the UN orders it. Maybe the people there didn't want it to happen, but people are responsible for those in power, and those in power are the ones who provoked military action. If they cared enough, considering they aren't hand fed news like in a communist state, it is up to them to realize why we do what we do, and to fix that. By fixing that, I mean taking out those in power, like Saddam.

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About the Cold War... errr, how can you say it was our foreign policy that led to it? This was a direct power struggle between the former Soviet Union and the United States, which developed bit by bit after the Bolsheviks took over the country after the 1917 Revolution, flowering mainly as Communism first took hold under a very Marxist Lenin, was promulgated by the iron hand of Stalin, and continued under Kruschev, etc. You must understand Russian history: this was a country which had long been under the Mongolian Khanate, and when finally getting out from beneath their overlordship only found themselves under an equally iron rule of 600 years of czars. Serfdom, which was ended in Europe with the Middle Ages, wasn't even BEGUN to be eradicated in Russia until 1861. At first Communism looked wonderful, especially since it really stressed the climb from darkness and the spread of technology. Stalin's "electrification of the USSR" and so on, heh. Technological growth in the Soviet Union was a jealously guarded secret from the world in general; EVERYTHING was secret behind the Iron Curtain. Advancements which paralleled our own were hidden from their own people, where ours were pretty much open to the entire world. (This is in particular regards to the Space Program and the "race for space.") It was the Soviets who, by their veil of secrecy, voicelessly began the Cold War. They announced their achievements AFTER THE FACT, and the biggest one of those was their being the first to launch a satellite into space, and then a man. With a policy of anti-capitalism running the show, combined with utter secrecy that leaked out technological advancements, it was no wonder we feared they were working on a nuclear attack against us. THAT is what the Cold War was all about, and how it began: two big dogs seeing who would end up being the one with the loudest bark. Thank God it is over... at least for now. I certainly hope the cooperation that is flowering between our two countries continues to grow.

[ 02-27-2002 11:51 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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As for the people in the countries where UN action is brought in remember they are the ones that suffer the most for that action and often they agree with thier leaders and don't want them taken out of power, often people in dictatiorships are handfed news they don't see another side of things and you hear something long enough you believe it and so do these people - if we could intervene without them dying and bring immediate relief then maybe they would thank us someday but we bomb we kill them and we give them no aid until its over and we've "won" that is why we are so hated - it is our way of doing things more than the fact that we do them - as they see it we don't help we take away thier life lines - thier government who they are taught to love.

Graysith: First look at the way we treated the Native Americans - we took all thier land and FORCED them to follow our culture and live our way or live on the Reservations with inadequete food, and shelter, and look at how many of them died because of it. Then look at Isreal - the Isrealis want our help the Palestians don't but we force them into the talks too - they would rather we stay out but we do go in and take sides like they were always afraid we would. Texas is another example - when they wanted our help we didn't give it to them when they didn't we tried to add them to the nation - they wanted to be independent - and they were for a while after and happy with it only joining us for economic reasons ( ie no food grow in a dessert - or very little and thier population was soaring) Vietnam - we entered to protect our economic issues - at the request of the French who had already granted them independence thereby had no right to go back in and the Vietnamese didn't want us there - they were ready to just talk about it and settle peacefully - and probably Communist. There are more - at least where the PEOPLE REMEMBER it that way.

Most of this Anti-Americanism just now is - straight from the horses mouth - due to our treatment of the captured terrorists and such - which is greatly over exagerated here - our very bad bombing success rate in recent wars (ie Gulf War with a 12% or so success rate) and overwhelmingly our Crusader attitude in not LETTING other nations who have offered troops to come in and fight with us - the French were really peeved on the news because Chirac was told that we didn't need his troops - the few that they have here - but he could send food anf clothing if he wished. American Magazines such as Time are giving this same complaint BTW stressing its possible affect on Anti-American sentiments. My info on these feelings come from people of those nationalities that I know basically turning most every class into America Bashing sessions for at least a little while - and only having the one Canadian in the class to help me defend her.
You mentioned separating fact from emotion but when the topic is the EMOTIONS of other the emotion is the fact and Anti-Ameican Sentiments are most definitely EMOTIONS they can not be separated from the fact because in the subject they are the fact and it is these sentiments that Terrorists tend to act off of and so have to be discussed as is and the reasoning behind them to understand how to stop them and work to clear up the name of our country.
In my quote I was referring to any other group who might someday make a similar move in retaliation to what we have done "to" thier people and country if we keep up our current method of Foreign Affairs - or at least the method Clinton used which is still the best know outside the US as it was around for so long and Bush is so new and not quite as well known yet. I was not referfing to Bin Laden and what he did because I know that he is in general the exception to the rule as he is Loony toons as evedienced by his own statements and the dicust other Muslims (the ones I know personally) have for him and the way he has twisted thier doctrines to say what he wants. I never said I disagreed with Dessert Storm in fact i said the opposite somewhere up there, and I know we were asked then and we did the right thing - but that isn't what people refer to as our interference either.
Nothing has turned me against my own country but if we are to help her future along we need to understand what others think of her the quote you mentioned is a paraphrase and translation of a critique that was thrown at me by another student in a class discussion and I had no answer for her - we certainly before now had no need of it - not since WWII have we really had need of it not to protect ourselves but she living in a small country - a relatively unstable country sees it as a threat and as she mentioned many others do to - there was a lot of agreement in the class about that - including people from our allied nations - no one else understands why we do and it does frighten them - who knows who the US will "get mad at next" is one thing they think about - we have to adjust our foriegn relations in a way that we aren't seen like this. And decreasing our Army after our war is a great way to do so.
About the Cold War - we really didn't try talking like we should have - yes the Russians were very secretive that was only a part of it - we actively went into conflict with them to stop other nations form taking up - WILLINGLY - thier ideals - we acted as if everytime they tried to help someone they were attacking us - they were not the only ones at fault - Reagan openly admitted that in talks with the Russians when he helped us start the disarmament - it's well known now that it was a combination of both our paranoias that caused the Cold War and neither made any attempt to do anything but stock up more Nukes - we pride ourselves on talking through problems and yet didn't try that with Russia - we treated them as a treat and they did the same to us - our advancements weren't known to us either until they were ready - much less to the world - we had mlots of classified docs and the like - not as open as people now seem to think it was. Yes the Russian history was bad - but that didn't give us the right after being thier Allies throughout the War to all of a sudden say - "we don't trust you" both nations were equally at fault for that - maybe us more so for as they were are starting government ours was well founded and we knew better!!!! yes they were secretive - but we were even more so during WWII and even our closest Allies didn't know we had the Bomb until it hit Hiroshima - of course the Russians would want to guard thier secrets - we did the same! But we could have talked to them - Reagan did and it wasn't long before the Cold WAr ended - even before Communism ended there we decreased the tension and increased the friendship by a long shot over the past. No one country was at fault alone then - it was both of us.

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I am not quite certain what you are saying here, but you entirely missed my point. I DID say it is EXTREMELY difficult to STEP BACK AND VIEW CIRCUMSTANCES OBJECTIVELY. Only then can the true issue at stake be shaken from the distractions of heated emotions involved, and once identified only then can steps be taken to eliminate the problem. Apparently those you speak of/with cannot seem to take this major step, as cannot, unfortunate as it is, quite a few of the peoples of the world.

[ 02-28-2002 02:32 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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I'll have you know, I am in high school. I know what kids are like. I know it more than a teacher would, so stop acting like teachers know all and see all when it pertains to the students.

You said kids in Elementary school should fear. What are you talking about? Little Rock was the only bad school shooting at an elementary school, and who's fault was that? The parents. You say bullying isn't the problem, what rock do you live under? If kids weren't bullied, students wouldn't want to bring a gun to school and teachers wouldn't have to intervene. I can recall one other shooting at an elementary school, and that was because a kid wanted to show off his dad's gun. Again, the parents's fault. It seems a lot of parents can't put values into their kids, and create a relationship where if the kid is bullied, he'll tell the parents. So, you're a teacher in trainign who wants to seem as if everything in a student's life is your responsibility, IT IS NOT ALL YOUR RESPONSIBILITY! Kids have Parents.

--if we could intervene without them dying and bring immediate relief then maybe they would thank us someday but we bomb we kill them and we give them no aid until its over and we've "won" that is why we are so hated

What are you smoking? Are you not aware that from the first day of bombing in afghanistan, we have dropped food to the people? Have you heard of the American Red Cross? What do you think they do? Did you not download the article I uploaded FOR YOU?

Ugh, give me a break. The Indians. That started when we were all british. Please, forgive me for my great great great great grandfather's actions. Like I had any play in that, like anyone alice today did. You can't blame one generation's ass play on another just because it's in the same Country.

Israel and Palestine. Are you dense? Both the Israelis and the Palestinians want peace, some more than others. We did not force them to come to peace talks, we can't force them. We invited them, they came. You can't base your belief that they didn't want to come on the beliefs of the fanatics. That's like saying America is satan because Usama bin Laden thinks it.

Texas. Texas couldn't make it on their own. They would have rather joined the Union then sit there and eat dirt. They have a reason for joining, it's obvious, don't act liek they didn't want it. Sure, some didn't want it, but you can never make anyone happy. Personally, I would rather have left them independent, then Bush wouldn't be President.

Vietnam. Our ideals are in no way related to Communism. In Vietname we fought for human rights. Get over it.

Again, what are you high on? 12% accuracy in the Gulf War. Are you aware that we won that war? It lasted about 90 days. We could not have won with 12% bombing accuracy. In fact, most experts would agree that that is the second best bombing campaign we've done, the first being Afghanistan.

Ya know, if the French president has a problem with us not using his troops, who gives a damn. We have a big enough army to not need his, and he should realize that, and get over it.

The Cold War was no one's fault. Neither nations trusted the other. Neither would step down farm arming themselves because of fear the other would attack. There is nothing we could have done. The "we don't trust you" sentiment was going on all throughout the war. It's apparent you need to read up on history.

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to make this post more important looking and sounding good I shall now paste apart of "full metal jacket"

this has nothing to do with space (excuse the bad words, I didn't come up with this script)

Master Gunnery Sergeant HARTMAN walks along the
line of
blank-faced recruits.

HARTMAN

I am Gunnery Sergeant
Hartman, your Senior
Drill Instructor. From now on, you will speak

only when spoken to, and the first and last
words out of your filthy
sewers will be "Sir!"
Do you maggots understand that?

RECRUITS
(in unison)

Sir, yes, sir!

HARTMAN
Bullshit! I can't hear you. Sound off like you
got a
pair.

RECRUITS
(louder)
Sir, yes, sir!

HARTMAN
If you ladies leave my island, if you survive
recruit
training ... you will be a weapon, you
will be a minister of death,
praying for war.
But until that day you are pukes! You're the

lowest form of life on Earth. You are not even
human fucking beings!
You are nothing but
unorganized grabasstic pieces of amphibian

shit!

Because I am hard, you will not like me. But

the more
you hate me, the more you will
learn. I am hard, but I am fair!
There is no
racial bigotry here! I do not look down on
niggers,
kikes, wops or greasers. Here you
are all equally worthless! And my
orders are
to weed out all non-hackers who do not pack
the gear
to serve in my beloved Corps! Do
you maggots understand that?

RECRUITS
(in unison)
Sir, yes, sir!

HARTMAN
Bullshit! I can't hear you!

RECRUITS

(louder)
Sir, yes, sir!

Sergeant HARTMAN stops in front of a
black recruit,
Private SNOWBALL.

HARTMAN
What's your
name, scumbag?

THe examples I gave which everyone contested are examples others have given to show why they are afraid we will inforce our ideals on them. Again I'm trying to put across the view point of others - of those who areharboring this Anti-American sentiment we need to deal with. I'm trying to show what they think of our country - and what they first think of when asked about our history and policies.

As with what people see to be the problem with us helping in the Isreali Palestinian peace talks is that htey fear we will manuveur them around to do our own good and to reach our own goals - again view points of Non-Americans - mostly from the ME on this one.

Again I have not talked at all about the WTC - I'm putting points out towards where we need to go in the future to prevent ANOTHER group from trying the same thing - how we need to deal with other nations so that they realize we are not out to dominate the world which some of them REALLY think.

As to why the Cold War peace talks are seen as good by these same people when our involvement in Isreal is "bad": simply because we were talking about peace between our OWN natin and another WE were having problems with - ie we weren't moderating but making the compromises ourselves in order to change our own lives and nation for the better - we were the ones who would have to live with what we decided and no one else (besides the Russians but they had an equal say).

the Crusader not asking for help attitude thing: Yes that is what we were doing - that is NOT how THEY SEE it - again it's a question of our intentions versus what the world PERCEIVES to be our intentions. They saw it as an insult to thier ability and the WANT to be more involved - Terroism doesn't just affect the US - it affects the WORLD and they WANT to HELP WITH thier ARMIES, many nations have been upset and insulted by the fact that only Britian was invited to send arms, THEY don't SEE it as not being risked unnecessarily they SEE it as the US acting big and tough like we don't NEED the rest of the world - and that really bothers alot of people - when it would be so simple to just say ok send whatever help you think would be good - send us what you will and just thank them for what they offer, they just want us to gratefully accept thier help the way tehy did when they needed bailing out in WWI and WWII - they want to give back to us what we gave to them - they can't give as much and that bothers them to but it hurts thier pride more to be completemy rejected like the were and puts them off WANTING to help in the future - it makes pratical enemies out of our Allies.

the quote on the quote - i was refering thier to the size of our Army quote. The fact that us having a large army looks like a threat to other nations more than a place to turn for help. Not the Saving those that don't want to be saved.

They last quote you put in: Ok I think I did miss your point the first time through however you also missed mine in making that point as I had been talking about emotions from the beginning and other peoples' veiw points on our Foriegn Policy. Nothing i have said for the most part is based on fact as we Americans would know it but on the "facts" that they SEE in our actions often given to them I'm sure through Propaganda of thier governments against us - though they probably wouldn't see it as propaganda. the point that I have been trying to make from my first post on is that we need to listen to what others think about our foreign policies and improve that in thier eyes in order to improve our relations with their nations and people. Basically we need to take a second and STOP THINKING like AMERICANS but try to think like those people of the nations where we send our troops and other such aid. Think about what hte are told think about how they may see things - think about them first and then decide if our action will - in thier eyes - help or hinder them more - if we can say that yes they will SEE our help as help then proceed as planned but if we can say that No they will SEE our help as destruction of thier way of life then we need to rethink our methods and our intervention - if they are happy with life as it let them stay that way - Veitnam was not a Human rights issue nor was it a demand for help by the people it was a lets stop Communism from spreading even though these people are ready to embrace it willingly, as was Korea - and those are two events the world won't forget - they refuse to - and now when we step in for whatever reason they think back to that - especially in nations where propaganda is highly used by the governement and censorship is commonplace - and they worry we are trying to do the same in their country. We have to be more aware of that as a nation - especially the government.

Anakin - I know that teachers don't know all or see all - remember I'm a teacher in TRAINING which means it wasn't THAT long ago that I was in HS - and both my sisters still are as are many of my friends - I know what kids are like too - please don't start calling me Mam or anything like that - I hate feeling old I already do when talking to anyone still working on a HS diploma... Teachers will never know all or see all but we do NEED the tools to help where we can - with what we can - that is what these bills give us. I did not say kids in Elelmentary school SHOULD fear - but they do - they don't distinguish between the teens that do this and the kids their age - I've had enough 6 year olds tell me about these fears to know that it does happen. Yes there was only one bad elementary shooting but it wasn't the only one on our list I can assure you that though it is much less common it has happened. I also did not say the bullying is not a problem - or if it sounded like that I didn't mean it too - what i meant was it is not the problem addressed by this bill. That problem was the lack of teacher resources and rights to deal with problems in the schools like Bullying and violence. Teachers couldn't deal with it before - not effectively - there were no resources available to do so nor was the formation - the education on the subject - required in every state - there were states where teachers didn't need even one psychology class - and trust me that class is INVALUABLE when dealing with troubled children! Federal Law now requires at least one psych class for all teachers as well as formation in dealing with suspected Abuse, eating disorders and other such problems kids have to deal with - in short if we see a problem now, we KNOW HOW to deal with it and we are ALLOWED to approach the student to do so - it didn't used to be like that everywhere! I know everything in my students' lives is not my respeonsibility but LEGALLY everything they do while in my classroom I AM responsible for and while they are there I want to have all the tools possible to help them with whatever problems they may have, believe it or not some kids will tell thier teachers things they wouldn't tell anyother adult - especially if that teacher makes herself available to the students to do so and keeps an attitude that makes her approachable to her students - in short makes them feel comfortable approaching her about problems in or out of the classroom (and i use Her here because I am a woman not to say men could not do the same thing or have the same relationship with thier students). I know the kids have parents - I try my best to spend at least a little time talking to each and every parent of each and every child in my care, that is important too, parent teacher cooperation - and in so doing I see that some of the children have parents that aren't there for them and they are looking - especially at that young an age - looking for someone they can turn to in need - an adult they can really trust and teachers can fill that role too, thier are kids in the HS I went to - "kids" I graduated with that still go back to talk to that favorite coach or teacher on a regular basis, "kids" that didn't have good relationships with thier parents but who found a teacher that was open and that they could relate to - we can and will do all we can for our students in the classroom and after that it is up to the parents but we won't turn our backs on kids who come to us later either - even calling our homes emailing whatever - and all we wanted was the right to more tools to do our job with - we have that now thanks to this bill and while i can't do anything about what happens in my student's homes (barring abuse which I HAVE to report any and all suspicions) I most certainly can and will protect them while they are in My Classroom.

On the other quote see my answer to Graysith on the same one.

same as on the Indians and Isreal.

On Texas - look a little closer on thier War of Independence - they wanted US help for the War - we said nope - got too many problems of our own right now - then jsut as they were about to win anyway we sent a tiny tiny group to help them and then claimed that they were a part of the US now cause we helped they said "Yeah right" (paraphrased) and were an Independent nation for almost 30 years before the Texan Government ran out (basically) of ways to support its people and signed a treaty to join the US as the Umpteenth state provided all these crazy conditions which weren't important enough to remember at the time I was taking US History but that is still a generation as a Free Nation when we had tried to force them into the US right away saying we helped with a tiny droplet of soldiers so they had to join us in return. And yeah the eventualy did cause they found they couldn't make it on thier own but they almost didn't have a cnance to try it - we were jsut having some Custer and Indian problems around the same time so didn't bother so much with them (and I think we knew they would eventually decide we were right and they needed us )

I think you need to check on the basis for our entry in to Veitnam a little more - there was a good reason it was so protested and it's not cause the Flower Children were against Human Rights but against using arms to force economic policies. the government might have claimed that allowing North Veitnam to take over the governance of South Vietnam - which they were discussing at hte time more than fighting - and allowing all of 'Nam to become Communist was saving the South Veitnamese from the "human rights infractions of Communism" ie all property communal and other such ideals (for them) it in fact was because we were afraid of teh Dominoe Affect and the spread of Communism - and it was not the only conflict we dealt with in the same way, around the same time, for the same reasons.

The 12% accuracy rate comes from recently released perviously confidential government reports - it is the ratio of Number of Bombs on target to Number of Bombs dropped basically the more mistakes we made the more bombs we dropped until we took out the target - however the rest destroyed schools and daycare centers and other civilian sites. Yes we won hte war and yes it is quite possible to win a war with only a 12% success ratio - you just have to drop a whole LOT more bombs - you win by taking out all you set out to take out and doing it faster than the other guy - how many bombs you use does not factor into that equation. And I don't deny that is was a very good campaign - none of our Infantry ever had to actually set foot inside Iraq - I'd say that was quite successful - but it doesn't mean it was the most accurate. And others are more prone to remember the civilian sites that were hit by that other 88% of the bombs dropped.

Your statement about the French is exactly what has gotten the international community so miffed - they call it American Snobbery - if they want to help let them help - it doesn't hurt us and it makes them feel good - it's like accepting that horrid piece of wood as a birthday gift from the kid next-door you don't need it but it's the thought that counts so you accept it with a smile and hide it somewhere on a shelf in the back of a closet - you don't insult the poor kid by saying no like that.

Exactly my point on the Cold WAr - if 2 groups are equally at fault for something it's no one's fault but a joint fault of the two - and yeah we could have stopped it by stopping the home paranoia and talking but so could have they. I know my history quite well thank you but any war - particularly the Cold War can be stopped by one side being big enough to step out and offer thier hand in peace - it worked in the end - either side could have done it much sooner were they not acting on such paranoia. Reagan showed he was bigger than those before him as did Gorbachov by getting together and making that step. Why didn't Truman do the same with Stalin when they had been allies throughout WWII - We'll never know but they could have as could have every president of either country right up until Reagan and Gorbachov actually did.

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And now, going round circle to what started this whole shebang, do you see why cutting NASA would be harmful (which won't happen, but a "what if" sort of thing began this)? Science seeks TRUTH, irrefutable fact, it is objective, and seeks nothing more than accuracy. In my humble opinion, we need scientists to run the world, heh, but we all know THAT will never happen!

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In fact, I don't think we have EVER IN OUR HISTORY actually begun a war. It's all been defensive moves on our part, or ONCE AGAIN at the behest of others. Please enlighten me (with facts, thank you) if I have missed something somewhere... hmmm, I don't recall us sending in people to colonize others either. And may I point to Puerto Rico, who I believe this year is being given YET ANOTHER CHANCE to VOTE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY whether or not they wish to become our 51st state. I don't see us just overpoweringly incorporating them into our United States.

[ 03-01-2002 12:29 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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In closing, once more, all I can say is: tell your friends to acquaint themselves with American history. Look to the facts of WHAT WE HAVE DONE, and get their collective butts out of their self-created morass of "What if...?" Sheesh, the world would "what if?" itself to death if someone didn't prevent it from happening, and whether the world likes it or not, oftentimes that mediator has been us with the COMPLETE SANCTIONS of the UN and NATO.

[ 03-02-2002 12:48 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Graysith ]

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As for our ideals, and forcing them on others, we never do that. Please, explain this to your foreign friends in france, our ideals are simple. They consist of three basic rights that should be given to every single human being. Those are the right to life, liberty (freedom), and the pursuit of happiness. We believe every single person is allowed to live. Every single person is allowed to say how they feel and express themselves, we believe every single person has the right to make themselves happy in life as long as it does not interfere with someone else's rights. THEY ARE SIMPLE. If those people cannot undertsnad those they should move to Mars and try to breathe the air there. Please, get them to get on your cpmputer and explain to me what is wrong with those 3 basic rights that they hate so much.

We comply with UN Resolutions, as should they, since they are members. If they are too stupid to look for the facts rather than believe popular opinion coming from the ignorants in their society, then, again, they should move to Mars and clear the land here for people worth listening to. Tell them if they care so much about us, learn our history. See what led up to our Revolution, and understand why we hold those rights so close to us. Everything we do is to spread these. We fought communism becuase it was a huge contrast to those. It's not hard to understand.

So, nonAmericans are afraid we will force our views on the Palestinians and Israelis? WHO CARES. Our views on humanity are far better than anyone else in the world except maybe the buddhists, and if they all live by those 3 basic rights I explained, everyone would be happy. Except for one thing, as expressed in our Declaration of Independence, people have a right to form their own government, based on their beliefs. We NEVER force our beliefs on either of those groups. We want peace there. Ask your friends if they're ticked at the new Saudi peace plan. Do they care that the Saudis want to force their views on the people there? Or are they smart enough to realize even the Saudis want peace there. I'd expect the former to be true.

BTW, in the peace talks we have, we don't tell them what to do. The President opens the forum to the two leaders to talk and decide what is going to happen without the fear of one trying to kill the other. Yet again, it's simple.

Have you noticed we have the strongest military in the world? Why on earth would we want another country's troops there when we can take care of it? From a strategical point of view, it's much more easier commanding your own troops, when you know what they can do, and you have full authority over them than it is commanding troops from tons of nations who might not always be able to handle what you put them to and who you can't have full authority over. Simple again. They should be able to understand those facts. We used a british submarine the first day of bombing to shoot some stuff, that's it. The onlt other foreign aid is in the peacekeeping forces now in place there.

If we stop and say no to every time we go in and the people there may see us as hurting them, those people would no longer exist. We go in to save their lives, if we didn't they would die. So they complain afterwards. The only thing I see wrong with what we're doing is that we are not taking the recognition we deserve. We need to stop giving the recognition to the litte guy and come out and say "WE DID THAT, STOP HATING US YOU STUPID BASTARDS."

The reasons behind Korea and Vietnam are simple. Communism contradicts our basic beliefs. And at the time, if we had allowed the spread of Communism, we might not be here today. The whole of Middle America could very well be communist if we let it spread, and then we would have them at our border, ready to his us with nukes. Again, the people you talk to are oviously ignorant to the facts.

I was in elementary school while Clinton was President, and not once did the teachers not have the ability to step in when they say something wrong. So, why do you think teachers couldn't? Only and idiot wouldn't step in when they see a kid is planning to do a Columbine. The reward from stepping in completely overshadows anyone's thought about taking legal action against the teacher, although none could be taken anyways. According to me ( ), if you are a teacher and you see the parents are not there for the student, it is your responsibility, for the child's sake, to step in and inform the parent's of their lack of good parenting.

About Iraq. BLAH! Not possible to win a war in 90 days that way. We don't have an endless supply of bombs, and according to you, it would take more than we've got and there's no way we would win it in 90 days, because we'd have to stop and make some more bombs. That's the reason we're waiting a few months to take out Saddam, we're outta our good bombs and gotta make some more.

There is a problem with your analogy of Stalin and Truman and Reagan and Grobachev. Stalin ruled with an iron fist, the Soviet Union was as strong as ever, Truman was a dunce. Reagan was strong verbally, and the United States was extremely strong. Russia was in turmoil, and Gorbachev was willing to make the necessary changes. Every US President met with the current leader of the Soviet Union. When Reagan met with Gorbachev, he obviously realized his willingness to change, and jumped at the oppurtunity. Stalin, on the other hand, was a sadistic person, not caring about the people.

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People point the finger at us cause we are the big guys the easiest ones to do so to... No we didn't go into Ireland - they've calmed down on their own now but when I point that out everyone else points out that the part of Ireland in question is part of the UK and so in the domain of our "partners in crime" - hte British, that we are perfectly happy to let Elizabeth deal with her people herself cause we know she agrees with us.... But thier countries - well we didn't feel the same about thier leaders so we did what we wanted.... Yes misinterpretations, but real ones, and common ones apparently in Eastern Europe and the Middle East and something we need to figure out a way to deal with, there has to be a way to clear our name, maybe not waiting until thing get so bad - maybe helping thier governments a bit more before the problems start - who knows but as a nation we do need to try SOMETHING!

You are right Communication is the key - but not just with the people but thier leaders - we have ignored some countries in favor of others in the past - just about every president has met with British, French, and Japanese leaders but other nations not so much - and in some nations it's the leaders who give the info to the people - why not approach them and try to open some Friendly channels? I'm sure we could do it if we put our minds, and budgets to it! Instead of buying more outdated weaponry which costs MORE than teh more hightech stuff - simply because of materials used - we could up the hightech which helps us more anyway and use some of the rest on TALKING with these people we almost never do.

The gov reports I mentioned - again sorry not to clear on that again- these were US declassified documents of which I speak - the military classifies War documents for a set number of years to keep our enemies from discovering what we are doing during the war - obviously a good idea - and the Gulf War ones were just declassified last year - so they are official Pentagon Documents that give this figure, - sorry couldn't place the word "classified" the other day - it was right on the tip of my fingers but wouldn't come to me....

Ummm War we started - nothing that really affected the rst of the world - technically we did start the war of Independence by not being placid calm little colonial subjects to old Georgie Porgie... But that was only for us - we can't lhelp it if the French liked the idea and copied us decapitating thier poor king....

I think I pretty much answered your other questions above but the why must we one... We shouldn't be the only ones to do so but someone needs to be big enough to take the first step - I ask you WHY NOT us? Why not take that first step to improving international relations, why not try to smooth things over? Maybe if we take the first step - approach first others might notice and follow - heck the French followed us into Revolution and Democratic government, the Russians accepted our peace talks in the 80's why can't it happen again. We do have a stable nation and we have the time to look at both sides, some of these people are still struggling to survive - why not approach them first when we can instead of waiting for them to make the first move towards understanding?

Oh the French thing - remember they have been impacted over and over by terrorists - htey want to help in the peacekeeping now - why NOT let them and take some of our men out to continue elsewhere - why not let them take on some of the work from which they are benefitting - we aren't the only country that has been affected - let the others do thier part - make it a worldwide effort - and when it's all over maybe the world will be more solidly united - but someone has to start that, WHY NOT us?
BTW the French weren't offended by our involvement in saving them in WWII - just one man (Charles De Gualle) with a very loud voice that once claimed that he alone was France....

Anakin - again it is not FRENCH people I speak of - I'm in France true but I don't actually really know any French people over here - and they aren't the ones complaining - it is the people from the former USSR, other former Communist (and still dictatorial nations) and the Middle East of whom I speak - all quite recent immigrants.

The ideals you mentioned are not what comes to peoples minds in the countries I have meantioned when they think of the US - instead they think of greed, money, Hollywood and other such things that they have been allowed to see - ie the darker parts of our society...

Who cares if we force our views on Palestine and Isreal - I'll tell lots of people do - and the ones most worried about it are From Palestine, Jordan and other nearby nations. They most certainly care - and they don't believe that our ideals are the best in the world - that is a very egocentric statement - you may think they are but others definitely do NOT!

Us having the strongest Military in the world - the fact that we HAVE a military like this when we have had no really military threat in years is thier BIGGEST COMPLAINT! No we don't need others to step in - but the NEED to do so - they are just as affected as we are and they need to have a hand in thier own future - the troops they offered and that were turned down were for the Peacekeeping force there now - which was supposed to be an INTERNATIONAL force - the US could even benefit by sending some more of our troops out - say to the Philippines where they are begging for help and letting the French come in and help in Afganistan right now - keep the special task force in charge of hunting out Al-Queda (sp?) but let some of the peacekeepers go help where they are being asked for and where there is a real need right now!

"WE DID THAT, STOP HATING US YOU STUPID
BASTARDS." This would really stop people from hating us - or just throw the proverbial match in the haystack! It is patience and understanding that is going to help our image - it is extending the hand of friendship again and again even when it is slapped back at us that will eventually turn these attitudes - we need to show other that we are not nor are we trying to be the big bad wolf.

On Communism - no if you actually read the doctrines of communism it does not in any way shape or form contradict the principles of Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness - it jsut adds that the society should act in a way so that these are assured equally to all members - ie that money does not bring these things - so everyone should have the same things - that they should function together for the benefit of all - something humans really can not acheive - Utopia would be the perfect world - no war, no poverty, everyone happy and doing what they want without hurting others and still living to the fullest - no worry about money nothing like that - and Utopia - written by an American, or a Brit I forgot which - an Anglophone in any case - is about a COMMUNIST society - there was even a famous society of AMERICAN writers who named thier communal property Utopia in the 1800's and ran it as a Communist community in the middle of Penn. There have been many such Communist communities in our very own nation - abd they worked well for a time but the natural flaws of humankind prevented it from working in the long run - that is the flaw with communism - the very human flaw to want more and more. Communism simply apposes capitalism - and the threat was a threat to our big business - but not to the American worker - look at American history before the right to strike and look at the number of communist movements we had way before Russia (communism was "invented" by a Frenchman btw) the deal in Russia - why it succeeded there and not here first was simply because we had a wealthy class to oppose it and they were the ones with the money to sponser politicians and in Russia that was not the case with the Monarchy. Communism was not a threat - it does not contridict our values but our business who thrive because of capitalism were afraid to give that power to thier workers and since well they pay for the campaigns the politicians followed thier fears and that is one big reason for the Cold War!

Elemntary school under Clinton - you make me feel OLD... that said yes teachers had the right to step in to a certain extent before - but we have the right to step in much further now, as long as we have that little peice of paper saying we are certified that is... We can't still tell a parent how to parent still, but now we can send a child to consuling BEFORE consulting the parent and without the more obvious signs we have had to wait for in the past, that said not many parents say no when asked but again the depth of the "signs" that a problem exists was still a problem... Now that said - being able to RECOGNIZE these often subtle signs is also a problem and depending on the state one is certified in the amount of training could have differed from NO psychological training required to a decent level - now that is a MAJOR problem - if you can't identify that a problem exists then you can't solve it... you even said, "and not once did the
teachers not have the ability to step in when they say something wrong." the key part in that phrase is "when they SEE something wrong." Seeing the problem is half the battle and not all teachers had the correct tools to do so before. I'm going to ask you what state you are from - as if it is Cali, NY, or Penn - which are the highest rated 3 in educational standards - your teachers WOULD have had the correct training but in Alabama and Florida - the worst 2 in the ranking (2000 national school system ranking by state) it would be quite rare that they did - and it would definitely have been going above and beyond what they are required for the degree - not so with this new law.
"According to me ( ),
if you are a teacher and you see the parents are not there for the student,
it is your responsibility, for the child's sake, to step in and inform the
parent's of their lack of good parenting."

I agree - I would if I could but not yet having my certification I still have to watch kids I KNOW are being abused go home with thier parents simply because they did not walk up to me and say "Padmé, my mommy hits me, this broken wrist that I had last month was from when she threw me down the stairs cause I spilled some milk." And even if the child does come up to me and say this I have to have her give permission to me to write it down and then sign it that those were her exact words before I can even think about calling Social Services - so you can see where teachers power is severely limited - and all that because of a lack of a piece of paper...

Iraq I already dealt with... Russia - yes Stalin was strong but why should that have stopped Truman from saying, "Hey we were allies all through this war, you've got yuor form of government, we've got ours. We don't have to be friends but lets agree to let each other live the way we want with the system we believe in, I'll leave you alone and my country will leave yours alone, and you do the same for us. We can both let others follow who they will and we can live in peace. If you need our help just call and if we need yours we'll ask too." Or something like that in not so simple terms... Basically we could have just agreed to disagree on political system and lived together in peace but we didn't we let our egocentric thinking and fear of each other's way of life get in the way (and by we tere I mean both countries together) - it COULD have worked out differently - but no one tried. Things can be different with the world now - if we try!

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Oh well, at least we are in a semblance of agreement. But as for how we are seen by others: COME LET THEM WALK A MILE IN OUR MOCCASINS. Lord knows we've tried and tried walking in theirs, no matter what they believe.

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On the millitary - yes I can understand the detterent factor - but it is a hard one to explain - and i have yet to figure out an explaination that others would accept so if you have an idea on how to explain our way of thought in keeping such an army that I might have over looked after so long in another culture I could try to translate it and see if that does open any doors as you put it for some of these others....

umm yeah after posting the complaints of others intially I did try for the most part to address what you 2 had said - in a way and as a way to keep the conversation going.... So yeah i wasn't trying to be arguementative but instead put forth these complaints and then see if we could come to a joint agreement on what our nation should do to better our image with the world as a whole. I'm glad that we have been able to do so - lets just hope that our government will be able to handle what the world is asking of them in time to prevent another catastrophe.

(Sorry Ani - my net time is limited at school, but this was a short one for you...)

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