The Holonet Boards   » TPM & Original Trilogy   » SITH vs. JEDI


arogers1102

posted 02-11-2003 12:32 AM    
According to the movies, Luke (the one with the CRASH COURSE in JEDI training) is the only one to defeat a Sith on his own? Why does everyone idolize OBI-WAN??? He fought agains Darth MAUL, with QUI-GON's help, and only won that duel because MAUL got cocky! OBI-WAN fought against DOOKU, with ANAKIN's help... got hit in the leg and the arm! Fought against VADER by himself and got killed... This is a bad track record for the JEDI. So I ask of you this... which side is stronger, the SITH, the JEDI, or the INBETWEEN (LUKE)???

Entaris

posted 02-17-2003 01:35 AM    
ummm... The answer is as follows...


1. Maul was a bad @$$ fighter, no one could defeat him one on one, the fact that obi-wan could do it when he was cockie, is proof that he's great, cause no ordinary force can kill him...(just FYI maul is my favorite character)

2. Obi-wan was to worried about anakin to fight with his full, and dooku is a cheating bastard.

and 3. Vader is a bad ass fighter, and obi-wan died on purpose so he could guide luke as a spirit, had be been actauly SLAIN as you are implying, then he would not have been able to speak as a spirit(read "rogue" planet, it explains why qui-gon isnt a spirit)

and FINALY number 4... Which sith are you talking about that luke defeated? Sidious? OH WAIT! vader threw him off a ledge... Vader? wait no, vader turned to the light in the last minut, and luke never actauly beat him, in fact, vader had the advantage till palpy started zapping luke, and made vaders fatherly instincts kick in..

And you DID SAY "accordign to the movies" and luke only faced 2 sith in the movies, niether of which did he destroy.


ANd so, in the end, as the jedi have prevailed, logic would depict that the jedi are stronger...but this is just going by whats in the movies, and what has been presented...


Taehun

posted 02-17-2003 02:56 AM    
Sith...

next question?

No, seriously, like Entaris said, when have you seen a Sith get killed in one on one combat? The only time in the movies you actually see a jedi do half decent in a fight is when he's using the dark side. For example, obi-wan cut maul's lightsaber after qui-gon was killed, and he attacked in anger. Luke cut off Vader's hand after Vader pissed him off. Until then, Luke was getting his butt kicked.


arogers1102

posted 02-17-2003 08:07 AM    
LUKE did beat VADER... he just refused to kill him... And so the onslaught by PALPY came into effect. I agree that LUKE used a little of his anger, the same way OBI-WAN did, to beat VADER. But In my opinion, the SITH keep on kicking JEDI @$$ all over the Universe!

LumbiaSith

posted 02-17-2003 12:39 PM    
Yes, but that was only an implication, and what about Yoda. Come on now, their is no possible way you can say he doesn't have the ability to be Count Dooku, even if they are evenly matched, Yoda is far more expirenced in the Force and know much more about it. He has nearly reached his full potiental, while Count Dooku probably hasn't.

I think it matters how you put this, I think Jedi could provell. I mean by going off the movies you limit yourself to around 4 different Sith, while in the Expanded Universe there were many things you could base your own opinion off of.


Taehun

posted 02-17-2003 02:30 PM    
I still don't think yoda shouldve used his lightsaber...i mean, the scene where he used it was really cool, but he should've been on some mountaintop chanelling the force or something

LumbiaSith

posted 02-17-2003 05:53 PM    
Lol??

Why do you think that?


Entaris

posted 02-17-2003 09:04 PM    
The truth is...

There is no better "side" there are only better people... To judge by a title "jedi" "sith" is ignorant.

Thats like saying in a basketball game black people will alway's beat white people... While according to the NBA's standards that appears true, it is again according to people, personal skills.

Yoda was not evenly matched against dooku, in fact, he far surpassed dooku.

Yoda was a jedi master, now while the title "jedi" means nothing "jedi master" symbolizs the great trek he has undergone to achieve perfect balance in his mind and body. The reason that fight scene is so great, is because yoda has a sever size disadvantage, but his mind is so perfectly alinged with his body, and both are aligned with the force, that in the end, it is as though they were the same size.

Dooku sent lightning at yoda, and yoda stoped it, and not only did he stop it, but he returned it, which basicly said, "The force is a part of me, it cant touch me" which is why dooku resorted to lightsaber combat, he realized the futility of attacking yoda with the force, i mean, look at it, yoda didnt once make a TRUE aggressive force attack on dooku, had he, dooku would have died in an instant.

God i love being me... It is nice when you take starwars to a level that boards on philosphy...


Taehun

posted 02-17-2003 09:09 PM    
Yoda didn't attack becuase he's not supposed to. A jedi's abilities are supposed to be defensive-they're supposed to protect, not attack. The way I see it, the only way the force can be used for an attack is through the dark side, ie vader's grip or lightning. All of a jedi's force abilities are supposed to be defensive, like when yoda blocked the lightning from dooku.

Entaris

posted 02-17-2003 09:17 PM    
Ah, therin lies the great irony. Im not sure, but i dont think it ever say's a jedi's powers are defensive... I think it just say's a jedi does not act on aggression, there is a difference. Yoda could attack dooku without it being aggressive, dooku had already attacked him, and as long as he did not seek to destroy, its still good.

But, i could be wrong about the statements said, its been a while, so if i am, sorry.

But i think it does...

anyway, ya, thats the word from the Dark Priest...


Mara1Jade

posted 02-17-2003 11:02 PM    
Yeah, I think you are right Entaris. At least "Mara's personal philosophy of Jedihood" agrees with you. I think when a jedi "attacks" it's in response to a real and forseen threat (i.e. clones, etc.). They might not land the first blow, but once that first blow is made, they will do everything to PROTECT (as mentioned above).

arogers1102

posted 02-19-2003 11:11 PM    
However ENTARIS... YODA can be quoted as so "A JEDI uses the FORCE for Knowledge and Defence. NEVER for Attack." So In order for a Jedi Knight (or Master) to kill someone.... technically they have to use a little wee bit of the DARK SIDE!

Loban

posted 02-19-2003 11:39 PM    
Not every Jedi must use the dark side to kill...

Take Mace v. Jango as an example...


Entaris

posted 03-01-2003 11:58 PM    
Say but what is the darkside? the darkside is the corrupting force which takes a jedi and pulls him to the depths of anger and destruction. Yoda could attack dooku, cause dooku attacked him, and dooku hurt anakin/Obi-wan

You see, there are 2 types of jedi... the kind that die because they thought they shouldnt kill when there life is in danger... and theres yoda, who just kicks everyones @$$ no matter what they could ever try to do against him...

And then there are also 2 types of "sith" there are those losers that call themselves sith, but are really just jedi's that dont want to admit it... And there is Recinis... In the end, we know he would kill all of you, cept gray, i think he has a soft spot for her... *nods* ya, i think so...(i coul dbe mistaken, but theres about 10 pages of well writen roleplaying that say's otherwise... *wistles innocently*)


Darth Maul_199

posted 03-14-2003 06:54 PM    
some of you people are filled with crap, the only way anyone has beaten a sith IS using the dark side. yes a sith no jango fett a sith like with Exar Kun not 1 jedi not 2 jedi
a strike force evan greater than the one send to Geonosis and they still didn't kill (well not his spirit, they mangled his body pritty good though)

Sith are the ultimate beings true visionaries


Entaris

posted 03-15-2003 07:17 PM    
Your mean... Sheesh, your worse then I am when it comes to putting people down... I may trash talk, and do my best to make you feel stupid using my superior intellect and witty vocabulary... but never do i just go out and say "you are full of crap" Sheesh, have some respect man... everyones intittled to thier opinion! *acts as though there werent 5 pages of stuff he had just written which did not respect others opinions* Umm...ya...


And as for that, i personaly cant think of sith in normal starwars terms anymore, so HA recinis rules, you dont... OH-ya!

But dont forget, there is always the lord of the darkside himself... The master of all evil things, the dude that makes palpatine look like a saint... He is... Barney, the purple dinosour! OHYA! *does a jig* im so clever *laughs*


Dash Kelderon

posted 04-18-2003 07:34 AM    
At least you TRASH TALKintelligently ENTARIS... Dart Maul wannabe here is just plain RUDE!!! and who joins a message board and only posts like twice since March???

Graysith

posted 04-18-2003 09:06 AM    
Is there a point to this, Dash?

Dash Kelderon

posted 04-18-2003 02:10 PM    
No, no point... just making another appearancein this thread!

Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-20-2003 07:31 AM    
Back to the topic.....I think that Jedi will prevail....however, there will alwasys be Dark Jedi(like how there will always be mosquitoes in my house...ouch) The Sith, being all power hungry would turn against each other and destroy the entire order
Examples:
1)Naga Sadow turned against his fellow sith lords during The Great Hyperspace War
2)Ulic Qel Droma Turned against Exar Kun during the sith war.
3)Darth Bane turned against the Brotherhood of Darkness during the Battle of Rusaan
4)Darth Vader wanted to overthrow the empire and rule with Luke at his side.
Therefore the Jedi are better

Graysith

posted 05-20-2003 10:56 AM    
People, let's break it down to the simplest components (Occam's Razor, and all that):

There is no light or dark side. There just is the Force. It is how it is used which determines its strength and potential. I think, being the natural energy which binds ALL things, as Yoda taught, it is thus obedient to HOW it is used, which then colors whether it is "light" or "dark."

Thus it is not the Force itself which determines the use. It is its use and the strength of the emotion guiding it that determines the force.

Anger and hate are two of the strongest emotions to Man. No wonder when the Force is used for this it is powerful.

Love is also strong... and when a jedi allows himself to die for another, well... no wonder he can return as a guiding spirit.

All in my humble opinion, of course.


Capt. OBVIOUS

posted 05-20-2003 01:46 PM    
JEDI use the FORCE!


He he he... This character is going to be soo fun!!!


Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-20-2003 05:18 PM    
Actually.....a jedi master becoming a force spirit has nothing to do with love. It happens naturally when they reach a certain level of mastery of the force.

LumbiaSith

posted 05-20-2003 06:07 PM    
Is this on paper or something. Does it mean that if a Jedi died and was at a certian level lower than Jedi Master, which seems to be the level you are speaking off, they wouldn't become a spirit.

Or is this just an assumption?

Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-21-2003 06:17 AM    
This theory has been researched, tested and proven.
Why did Qui Gon Jinn not become one with the force when he died?
Other examples of Jedi masters not becoming force spirits: Qu Rahn, Cay Qel Droma, Dorsk 81.....(they were all considerably younger and have not reached that level of force mastery when they died

LumbiaSith

posted 05-21-2003 09:35 AM    
Actually Qui Jon Jin did reached a mastery level. He could have been on the Jedi Council if it wasn't for his rebellious attitude that was created out of the philosophy of "not thinking, but feeling". He felt what he did most of the time was right or correct, so boo-bang.

I'm agreeing with Entaris idea, it is about being slain.


Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-21-2003 07:00 PM    
Slain? ok read the "Tales of the Jedi" comic series. In it Master Arca jeth is shot in the back, "slain". Why then does he become 1 with the force when he dies? Master Vodo-Siosk Baas was also "slain" by Exar Kun...yet he became a force spirit and returned to during the "Jedi Academy" trilogy.

LumbiaSith

posted 05-21-2003 07:20 PM    
Well you may be right, but Qui Jon Jin did make an apperance in the last movie as a spirit. He was one with the force, as he was able to scream out to Yoda through the force, as well as Anakin that this was wrong.

He was saying "No" during Anakin's masacare at the Tusken Raider camp.

I don't think it is about mastery though. I think it is about becoming one with the force, body and mind before your death. Whether it be right before or for years previous.

You can attain this without master as a Jedi.

Or it has to do with submitting yourself to the ways of the lightside. With love and compassion for others than yourself. This justifies why Darth Vader, though he killed previous before he death out of anger became one. He defended his son out of love and compassion.


Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-21-2003 07:26 PM    
Qui gon did not become a force spirit....only a voice.....
Oh wait what did Yoda say about meditating,"through the force, other places you see, other people, Old friends long gone".
If Yoda just heard Qui Gon's voice while meditating, it dose not mean Qui gon is a force spirit....Yoda just heard "an old friend long gone" during meditation

LumbiaSith

posted 05-21-2003 07:33 PM    
No...

He has became a Force Spirit by what George Lucas says. If the actor who plays Qui Jon Jin hadn't been hurt in a bike accident George said he would have played a larger role in the movie. This hints that he is a Force Spirit and is able to channel himself through the Force.

A Force spirit is one that is one with the force. You are not one with the force if you don't hold the ability to talk through it. And who is to say that Anakin didn't see Qui Jon Jin. They split from the battle afterwards and went through the eyes of Yoda.

He could have heard at the camp Anakin's killing of the beings, aswell as Qui Jon Jin there.

ANother point of information that implies Qui Jon Jin is a very important role is that he will make an apperance in the next movie. Visually....

Now if that doesn't show he is a Force Spirit, I don't know what does...

I know you might think that this visual apperance might by a holocron, but I'm pretty sure from how George said it, and the interview that took place it would probably be a Force Spirited being.


Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-21-2003 07:36 PM    
Now how do You know that?.....inside info, a leak, come on let me in on the good stuff(i love spoilers)

LumbiaSith

posted 05-21-2003 07:39 PM    
Get away from me...shouldn't have told you all this in the first place. But I can only hint...I got it from a star wars site.

This could hint it was the offical one, or fan on...you'll have to find out yourself.


Graysith

posted 05-21-2003 07:40 PM    
And as I recall with all the speculation, yadda yadda yadda, "George wrote/said such and so..." which occurred between Episode 1 and Episode 2, half of it didn't happen.

So once again... speculation? Pfft.


LumbiaSith

posted 05-21-2003 07:42 PM    
What speculation are you talkin' about Gray?

Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-21-2003 07:43 PM    
What do you mean by "half of it didn't happen"?

Dash Kelderon

posted 05-24-2003 07:13 AM    
Yeah, look how long it too ANAKIN to appear to LEIA in the EU books. Maybe it's just that he hasn't chosen to appear to anyone yet!

Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-24-2003 07:44 AM    
Hold it....which book did he appear to Leia?

Dash Kelderon

posted 05-24-2003 07:52 AM    
I want to say that it was the one where LUKE meets CALLISTA's spirit on that drednaught. But I think it might be a book or two after that one.

Dash Kelderon

posted 05-24-2003 07:54 AM    
Planet of Twilight if memory serves me now!

Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-24-2003 07:55 AM    
I thought Callista became Human and was Luke's first love. Then they broke up only 1 book after they met.

Dash Kelderon

posted 05-24-2003 08:04 AM    
It's been so long since I read the books I have trouble remembering what happened in what books. But I think The ANAKIN/LEIA thing happened in the books with the NOGHRI calling LEIA "LADY VADER"

Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-24-2003 07:52 PM    
I don't think so.....Anakin does not appear in the Thrawn trilogy. I should know, I have the comic books.

Dash Kelderon

posted 05-24-2003 08:02 PM    
No no no... Way after the THRAWN TRILOGY. (Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, and Last Command)

Planet of Twilight, where HAN and LEIA try to help the NOGHRI rebuild thier world.


Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-24-2003 08:12 PM    
No wait....i dug through my Star Wars book collection......actually Anakin appeared to Leia just after ROTJ in the book "Truce at Bakura" and begs for her forgiveness.

Dash Kelderon

posted 05-26-2003 04:14 AM    
I knew he did. I just couldn't remember when! Thanks for clearing that up Xam!

LumbiaSith

posted 05-26-2003 10:51 AM    
Get back on subject guys, what about the Sith and Jedi?

Xam Ngboohan

posted 05-26-2003 05:31 PM    
The Jedi.....will prevail!!!!

Dash Kelderon

posted 06-02-2003 04:32 AM    
I don't know. I think that Good only wins in movies. If you have ever watched 2 people really fight. The one who fights dirtyest will win 9/10 times.

Sa'kal'ishaalas

posted 10-13-2004 05:02 AM    
well, first of all, the famous sith of the past took on more than 10 jedi (not at the same time) and defeated them all, and it took many more to finally bring them down. It is because the dark side is more powerful at first, then becomes weaker later on and exacts its tole by weakening the body. But the sith rule anyway.

And gray is right, the force is not inheritly good or evil, but how it is used is. It is the same with the force powers. Using the force to crush someones life would be considered evil, but using it to heal someone would be considered good. This is not a finished thought however, but i don't want to type too much at the time.

[ 10-14-2004 12:17 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Sa'kal'ishaalas ]


Dash Kelderon

posted 06-12-2007 12:25 PM    
Seems like a very Jacen Solo kind of answer. The force is not separated into light and dark. It is all the same. It's just haw you harvest the power and to what ends you use it!